From the Pragmatic Environmentalist of New York
In 2022, Micron announced its plans to build the largest semiconductor fabrication facility in the history of the United States. Micron intends to invest up to $100 billion over the next 20-plus years to construct a new chip fab plant in Clay, New York. A recent letter to the Editor of the Syracuse Post-Standard posed the questions: I wonder why the citizens of our state must be the sole providers of electricity to Micron? Shouldn’t Micron at least share in producing electrical power? The author went on to make recommendations that are inconsistent with the energy density of wind and solar that relate to the viability of the venture. This post documents the response I submitted to that letter.
I am following developments at Micron because the facility is going to be built within five miles of my home. I also follow the Climate Leadership & Community Protection Act (Climate Act) because of its impacts on New York. The letter relates to both interests. The opinions expressed in this post do not reflect the position of any of my previous employers or any other organization I have been associated with, these comments are mine alone.
Overview
The Climate Act established a New York “Net Zero” target (85% reduction and 15% offset of emissions) by 2050. It includes an interim 2030 reduction target of a 40% reduction by 2030 and a requirement that all electricity generated be “zero-emissions” by 2040. The Climate Action Council (CAC) is responsible for preparing the Scoping Plan that outlines how to “achieve the State’s bold clean energy and climate agenda.” In brief, that plan is to electrify everything possible using zero-emissions electricity. The Integration Analysis prepared by the New York State Energy Research and Development Authority (NYSERDA) and its consultants quantifies the impact of the electrification strategies. That material was used to develop the Draft Scoping Plan. After a year-long review, the Scoping Plan recommendations were finalized at the end of 2022. In 2023 the Scoping Plan recommendations are supposed to be implemented through regulation, PSC orders, and legislation. Environmental permitting is part of these implementation concerns.
Micron Chip Fab Faciliity
The description in the Environmental Assessment Form states:
Micron intends to invest approximately $100 billion over the next 20 years to build a leading-edge semiconductor manufacturing campus in the Town of Clay on the approximately 1,400-acre White Pine Commerce Park. Micron intends to acquire the White Pine Commerce Park from the Onondaga County Industrial Development Agency (OCIDA) and construct a campus for four (4) memory fabrication plants (also known as Fabs) on the site. Each Fab, and their related facilities, would take approximately three to five years to construct. Interior fit-out of each Fab would continue after the building is complete, resulting in continuous site activity over approximately 20 years. It is anticipated that the first two (2) Fabs would be complete within approximately 10 years, and the second two (2) Fabs would be complete approximately 10 years thereafter. Skilled trade labor will be employed throughout the 20-year period. Each Fab would occupy approximately 1.2 million square feet (sf) of land and contain approx. 600,000 sf of cleanroom space, 290,000 sf of clean room support space, and 250,000 sf of administrative space. Each set of two fabs would be supported by approx. 360,000 sf of central utility buildings, 200,000 sf of warehouse space, and 200,000 sf of product testing space housed in separate buildings.
Micron should share in producing power for its chip fab letter
Scott Love from Jamesville, NY sent a letter to the editor proposing several actions for the power needs of the facility.
After reading the article “Leaders: Grid must grow for Micron, others” in the Dec. 3, 2023, Business section of The Post-Standard, I wonder why the citizens of our state must be the sole providers of electricity to Micron? Shouldn’t Micron at least share in producing electrical power? The acreage covered by the Micron facility roofs should be used for producing solar power. In addition, hydro generators should be considered for the almost 40 miles of pipeline to and from Lake Ontario. On-site wind power should also be considered.
If Micron is to be considered a leader to the future of our community, then it is time for them to be forward-thinking in their planning.
There are several points raised that are ripe for comment in this letter. I submitted the following in response:
Scott Love recently suggested that Micron should share the responsibility to provide the electricity necessary for the facility. I agree with the idea but not his suggested approach.
He suggested that the facility use rooftop solar, think about on-site wind power, and consider hydro in the pipeline from Lake Ontario. That won’t work. The energy density of solar and wind is low. Even if the entire Micron footprint of 1,400 acres was covered with solar panels, panels would provide less than 1% of the power needs. Wind requires even more space so would provide less of the energy needed. Lake Ontario is lower than the Micron site so the water must be pumped up to the facility.
I believe a co-generation facility using natural gas or nuclear power is appropriate. For starters, it would eliminate the need for energy storage when the wind is not blowing or sun not shining. On-site generation makes sense because it reduces line loss and waste heat produced can be used for heating and manufacturing processes. Small modular nuclear reactors are not yet commercially available, but the facility could be designed to use that technology in the future. In the meantime, a combined-cycle gas turbine facility could be built. Carbon dioxide could be minimized by using it in on-site greenhouses that convert it to food.
If Micron is going to be a part of our community, it is time for everyone to be forward thinking and pragmatic about how best to make them competitive.
The remainder of this article summarizes the overall issue of Micron energy requirements and specific concerns with the letter.
Micron Energy Use
In August I prepared an article that described the reaction of Richard Ellenbogen to the massive amount of energy needed by the facility. I correspond with him regularly because he has spent a lot of time evaluating the Climate Act net-zero transition. I recently described his comprehensive presentation on the transition. When I let him know that the original projection for energy use that would be the same as the state of Vermont has been expanded to be the same as Vermont and New Hampshire he responded with the following:
I have been using the Micron facility as an example of how the Climate Act is actually going to increase NY State’s carbon footprint because transmitting all of that energy to the Micron site, as much as is used by the state of Vermont, over long distances was going to result in an amount of lost energy on the wires that could operate 1-3/4 Cornell Universities. One of my readers sent me an update of energy use because now it is projected that the Clay complex will consume 16 billion kilowatt-hours of electricity per year, as much as Vermont and New Hampshire combined, or 16,000 Gigawatt Hours annually (16 Tera-watt hours). That is double the original projections and the idea that this could be supported with renewable generation is laughable. 16,000 GWh is an 11% increase in NY State electric usage just related to the one facility. The line loss will also double to consume the output of about a 100 megawatt fossil fuel plant under continuous operation.
To put the Micron facility’s usage into perspective, in its last full year of operation the 2 Gigawatt Indian Point nuclear plant generated 16.3 Tera-watt hours so the Micron facility will need to be supported by a 2 Gigawatt fossil fuel or nuclear plant on site or 2.1 Gigawatts of generation off site, 5% more. NY State’s policy makes absolutely no sense. To run the Micron facility would require using about 4 GW of the projected 9 GW of offshore wind to support the plant or 16 GW of solar arrays covering 128,000 acres (80 acres per 10 MW) or 200 Square miles. NY State has 7 million acres of farmland so solar arrays to support the Micron facility would use almost 2% of the farmland in the state and would also require an enormous amount of battery storage, the cost of which would greatly exceed the cost of a nuclear plant on site. A combined cycle generating plant on site would be about 75% less than the cost of the nuclear plant. Both the combined cycle gas plant and the nuclear plant on-site offer the option of recovering the waste heat and using it in the plant to make Micron even more energy efficient. With regard to the solar and wind, NY State is having major difficulties getting all of their renewable projects finished because of cost issues and interconnection issues, let alone adding this gigantic lead weight to the Camel’s back.
Micron Sustainability
The fact sheet for the proposed plan describes sustainability initiatives planned:
- Achieve 100% water reuse, recycling and restoration.
- Use 100% renewable electricity at the new facility.
- Use green infrastructure and sustainable building attributes for the construction of the new fab to attain Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design (LEED) Gold status.
- Mitigate and control greenhouse gas emissions (GHG) for the new facility.
- Incorporate energy efficiency measures.
- Utilize green hydrogen – hydrogen formed through electrolysis powered by renewable electricity, without GHG emissions – to the extent feasible to displace/replace natural gas and gray hydrogen consumption.
- Adopt measures to reduce and avoid waste generation and achieve zero hazardous waste to landfill.
I have been asked whether I think this facility will ever get built out as proposed. While I hope that it works out my skepticism increases in direct proportion to the number of commitments to politically correct narratives. This sustainability fact sheet is worrisome in that regard. The viability of this facility hinges on its ability to provide cost-competitive chips that require an energy intensive process. The Climate Act is going to raise energy prices and affect that metric. Consider those pledges relative to competitive viability.
This chip fab plant will use enormous amounts of water. Last summer it was disclosed that the environmental assessment expected that when the plant is fully fitted out that 40 million gallons of water per day would be needed. This would require a new 54” pipeline from Lake Ontario to the facility. It is not clear how that is consistent with the 100% water reuse, recycling, and restoration pledge unless the presumption that discharging to the Oneida River that ends up in Lake Ontario where it comes back to the plan is the 100% recycling mechanism. For my part I am fine with that.
The 100% renewable electricity pledge is a competitiveness problem, however. Ellenbogen’s response shown above addresses many of the issues. In his recent presentation he pointed out that as part of the commitment NYPA has committed to allocating 140 MW of hydro generation to Micron. The problem with that is that it does not represent new hydro. That is just re-labelling the “zero-emissions” attribute from somebody else to Micron for that power.
I have reservations about the remaining pledges. Ultimately, pledging to meet virtue signaling sustainability goals could increase energy costs which I worry could affect the viability of the facility. I have to believe that behind the scenes Micron and the State are going to have to address the tradeoffs of added costs for these pledges.
The pledge to use green hydrogen formed through electrolysis powered by renewable electricity, without GHG emissions caters directly to the Climate Action Council. This one could have major financial effects. Note that the caveat “to the extent feasible to displace/replace natural gas and gray hydrogen consumption”, is the only instance in their sustainability fact sheet where there is any hint that these aspirational goals may not be feasible.
The pledge to use green infrastructure and sustainable building attributes for the construction of the new fab to attain Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design (LEED) Gold status is pandering s well. As long as these efforts reduce energy consumption this virtue signal will not impact the competitiveness of the facility.
Offering to mitigate and control greenhouse gas emissions (GHG) for the new facility is fine but there are regulations that are going to require than anyway.
Incorporating energy efficiency measures is another pledge. As long as these efforts reduce energy consumption that will reduce costs and is common sense approach to adding to viability.
The final pledge to “adopt measures to reduce and avoid waste generation and achieve zero hazardous waste to landfill” probably makes sense financially and adds viability value.
Documentation for my Letter
Love proposed that the facility use rooftop solar, think about on-site wind power, and consider hydro in the pipeline from Lake Ontario. He does not understand the scale of energy required or the concept of energy density. The energy density of solar and wind is low. Using the aforementioned analysis by Ellenbogen I calculated that even if the entire Micron footprint of 1,400 acres was covered with solar panels, they would provide less than 1% of the power needs because it takes a lot of space to gather energy from the sun. It might be counter intuitive but Ellenbogen and I both found references from federal agencies that said wind facilities require even more space to generate the same amount of energy. Due to space considerations, I could not point out that solar and wind resources at the facility site are unlikely to be particularly strong relative to other sites in New York because the site is in the lake-effect cloud belt and the area is flat. I expect that the facility footprint would likely produce even less of the energy needs than projected using state averages. Another point I could not make is that on-site production would need to provide energy storage to be useful.
The proposal to put hydro in the pipeline from Lake Ontario is laughable. Lake Ontario is lower than the Micron site so the water must be pumped up to the facility. That approach is an example of a perpetual motion machine. Ellenbogen also pointed out that even if it was downhill, do they really think that a 54″ diameter water pipe could put a dent in the energy needed? Micron’s 16.2 TWh will use the equivalent to 60% of all of the Hydro in the state or 26.8 TWh. Micron is supposed to use 10 million gallons per day after recycling with a 54″ pipe. That corresponds to 7000 gallons per minute. The Robert Moses / Lewiston Pumping Station uses 750,000 gallons per second or 45 million gallons per minute. That would be 6500 times as much.
Ellenbogen and I independently decided that co-generation would be the most appropriate on-site energy source. We believe a co-generation facility using natural gas or nuclear power is appropriate. The Ellenbogen presentation proposed allowing Micron Technologies to build a 2 GW combined cycle plant on their property. He points out that with generation on-site, the thermal energy could be used at the plant and the 500 GWh of annual line loss will be eliminated.
There are two choices for generation. Small modular nuclear reactors are not yet commercially available, but the facility could be designed to use that technology in the future. In the meantime, a combined-cycle gas turbine facility could be built. The downside of a natural gas co-generation plant is that it will emit CO2. One of the unresolved Climate Action Council questions is whether such a gas-fired turbine that includes carbon capture and sequestration would be allowed. According to the zealots, there still would be emissions and the law says zero emissions. Ellenbogen suggested using greenhouses to reduce CO2 emissions. Using the CO2 in them to enhance growth captures carbon in the plants and waste heat from turbines to warm them would tick off the locally sourced produce target and I am sure creative accounting comparing local produce to the produce shipped from overseas could claim GHG emission reductions. .
Conclusion
The development of Micron within the Climate Act framework will be a good test of pragmatic environmentalism. The tradeoff between Climate Act absolutism, i.e., demanding nothing less than zero, with the extra costs associated with that approach versus the need to keep the Micron facility in New York competitive with the global chip market is an important substantive issue. However, much of the Climate Act is style over substance. The press releases to date talk a stylish game about being green but the approach to making them look “green” is a simply shuffling attributes from existing sources. Ellenbogen and I believe that we should let them be green in reality with high efficiency generation that lowers energy costs to make them more competitive without faking it. For all the talk of jobs associated with the energy transition if the energy transition makes the Micron facility unable to compete on the world market then there will be an enormous hit on jobs.
Energy density is the reason that on-site wind and solar generation would only be virtue signaling. The area simply cannot generate enough electricity to be meaningful. I have no doubt that environmental activists will be upset that I recommend energy dense natural gas or nuclear cogeneration that could be installed on the footprint. However, if Micron is going to be a part of our community, it is time for everyone to be forward thinking and pragmatic about how best to make them competitive.
Good analysis, just a couple more points:
Semi fab is an industry like aluminum smelting in that it cannot tolerate the slightest hiccup in power reliability. A blackout could easily lose $millions worth of product in a few seconds. I am sure there will be battery backup to avoid this. Not mentioned.
We used to have a huge fab facility in the US. It was called Silicon Valley for a good reason. It is now completely gone due to environmental concerns, mainly the contamination of wastewater with heavy metals. I am told that the newer fab facilities emit water cleaner than the water that goes in – but at what cost in reclamation facilities? Not mentioned.
Bruce P,
Any links to heavy metals in Silicon Valley, a lovely free enterprise village, an old stamping ground for this Aussie?
Re this Micron proposal, where are the educated engineers who should not merely be onlookers at this virtuous plan to use other than nuclear or hydrocarbon energy?
In my times, no respectable engineer would be heard to mention renewables for this critical task.
Too many people are now paid to tell others what they can and cannot do. It will end with tears. Geoff S
Good points. Thanks.
The point about power reliability is especially important given issues with wind and solar
Micron, I thought that was a useful unit of measure to indicate the size of a French President’s Brain.
Or even that of a French Canadian Prime Minister’s
Far to large to measure that of a US President though
So Micron want to build a plant and power it with renewable energy. Why not just let them? Suggesting nuclear power which is very expensive, has a lead time of a decade+, and unpopular is just absurd. They’re not going to wait for that.
Many large US companies are very keen on renewable energy, (E.G. Walmart) because it is cheap. Why impose gas on them.
Is that sarcasm or stupidity? Renewable energy is cheap. LOL
Do you have in mind that they can operate with intermittent availability of power?
Of course a company like Micron doesn’t get involved in a project like this in an ULTRA high cost state like New York except that there’s some kind of tax incentives where crony capitalists suck at the government teat. They have to compete with Korea and China making commodity memory chips. How stupid is that? How are the solar panel manufacturers doing in competition with Uighur slaves?
If NY taxpayers are lucky, this never gets started.
I’d sure like to see than try what even Google found can’t be done. Renewables won’t power manufacturing as a stand alone (off grid) without grid tie in…A grid supplied by reliable FF generation.
“I’d sure like to see than try what even Google found can’t be done.”
You make it sound like Google has the wherewithal to do anything it wants. Google has had many project failures because woke employees aren’t always the best.
“some kind of tax incentives ” does not cover the enormity of the tax breaks offered. Every politician in the state was at the announcement for the project. First guy hired – former employee of a politician
That gave me a Snarkgasm
@ Tonyx.. I gave you a thumbs up for what could only be your deep-seated sarcasm.
(anything other explanation for your comment would be just too stupid for words).
If Micron sets up using only renewables, they will end up producing absolutely nothing !
Manufacturing requires stable and reliable electricity…
Wind and solar can never meet that requirement.
Did you see anywhere that Micron WANTS “to build a plant and power it with renewable energy”???
If they WANT to spend 100 billion and use only renewable power, sure let them. But they’re not an ignorant company.
They publicly claim they are going to use renewables and the state wants to go “zero emissions” by 2040. As you point out that does not make sense. Get the popcorn and watch how this plays out
well, I guess they can just clearcut – how many acres of forest will be needed from solar farms- 50,000? I dunno. I’m sure the enviros will love that idea- to save the planet! Or, they can build- how many wind turbines- a few thousand? And put them near wealthy neighborhoods? Seems like some people aren’t giving this any thought- just proceed mindlessly, like Putin into Ukraine “it’ll just take a few days” and “everything is going according to plan”
When the world went into lockdown and human CO2 emissions DECLINED by 6% according to the International Energy Agency, it didn’t make a bit of difference in the growth rate of CO2. The increase in CO2 continued at the same rate as before the COVID-19 lockdowns.
That was a natural experiment that showed human emissions of CO2 aren’t causing the continuing rise in CO2.
https://www.iea.org/reports/global-energy-review-2020/global-energy-and-co2-emissions-in-2020
https://www.co2.earth/monthly-co2
You don’t care that this bullshit discredits serious climate realism, do you alphabet bot?
What specifically is wrong with what he said?
Put the cap back on the glue. The vapors are getting to you.
Let’s just say I’m glad I sold my Micron stock long ago. The poor long-suffering NY taxpayers are going to likely help fund another boondoggle that ends up bankrupt.
There was a day when the citizens and politicians actually wanted industry to choose their state in which to build a new plant. If I was Micron I would tell NY where to stick their green energy requirements and pick another state.
There are probably many other states that would offer incentives to come there without all these obstacles that will probably guarantee an uncompetitive cost structure. The lead time already looks rediculous.
New York’s advantage is the Town of Clay water reservoir – Lake Ontario
Ohio has Lake Erie, an industry-favorable government, and nuclear power.
If there are functioning brains in Micron leadership, it may well be that the NY site plan is a false flag to entice more rational state leaders to compete for their business.
Micron is either expecting massive subsidies, or a change in policy in New York State, or both. No way can a chip fab be run on intermittent, very expensive power.
Or they could be pulling a scam as in Mel Brooks The Producers. First, they pick a project that is absolutely guaranteed to fail on the first day of operation. Then they raise twice the amount of private capital needed to get it going. When, on the first day, it sputters to a halt in a manner so spectacularly obvious that no one can deny its failure, they close up shop, pocket the extra 100%, and skip town. Since no one knows how much they raised in private capital, they get away with it.
In The Producers, the scam artists were a theatrical producer and an accountant. They picked a musical script that was guaranteed to close after the first act: Springtime for Hitler. Rather than bombing (so to speak), the musical became an instant hit. Now, having spent the over capitalization on personal extravagances, they were unable to even continue the performances, let alone pay back the investors. So they tried a diversion in the form of blowing up the theater, so that they couldn’t continue the performances. That backfired (so to speak), and they were caught, tried, and put in prison…where they put on a musical called Prisoners of Love, and sold several hundred percent ownership in the show to guards, the warden, etc.
These days, though, we have the sophistication of Solyndra. Raise a huge amount of capital from dumb, but rich, Democrats who are also big donors to the Democratic party to debt finance a plant manufacturing solar energy devices, appealing to the investors’ need to virtue signal about renewable energy to fight climate change and save the planet. Any competent engineer looking at the project independently could tell that it would fail even more spectacularly than Springtime for Hitler, and there were many who did. Solyndra was much more clever than Max Bialystock and Leo Bloom, however, and leveraged the pressure of its Democrat “investors” to pry loan guarantees out of the United States government that were more than enough to cover any default. They used the fact that the “investors” were heavy donors to the Democrats, the Democrat Party and President were heavily invested in “fighting climate change”, and the Democrat President was a crooked Chicago politician who lived to get rich on the back of the taxpayers.
The collapse was complete, but the “investors” got their money back. A thorough investigation of the matter by the FBI and other government agencies found “no evidence” of criminal fraud, and no one went to jail. Today we know why that was. We can keep it up until the United States crashes its economy, taking the world with it. Just keep voting they way we always have.
This is why I think we are probably sunk as a super power. We absolutely need to have an industrial base on shore for national security reasons. But if this is the caliber of both the public and private sector management currently- we’re screwed. There still has to be reasonable cost control even if there are subsidies and incentives. And thank god it did not take us 10 -20 years to get a plant up and running during world war 2.
This doesn’t add up for me. Why would Micron even consider New York knowing it’s plans for net zero. The people at Micron have to be smart enough to know that the more renewable (wind, solar, storage) used the higher the energy rates go. The more renewable used the more likely you’ll experience brown or blackouts. Not to mention other environmental requirements that must be met. Nope I would be willing to bet that there have already been back room shenanigans taking place with high level government officials. This whole thing smells.
There is completely No Way any chip fab anywhere outside of China could be competitive.
Because energy is The Major Cost and primary input for those things.
(Not for melting, refining or processing the actual Silicon, 90% of the energy goes into (just) cleaning and filtering the air for the ‘clean’ rooms)
Micron are on a fishing trip for Government handouts.
What they are offering is simply far too good to be true.
End of story
Federal guaranteed loan for 90% of cost, with a clear understanding that loan repayment is “optional”. Same business model that will get the east coast offshore wind farms built. Progressive progress.
Why would the citizens of NY, or Australia, or, Canada, etc. elect the people they do to dictate policy? Who knows what now controls Micron?
Because we are all nations of dumbazzes that lack capacity for simplistic critical thinking. Sorry to say that is the truth of it.
Agreed
Maybe Micron realizes that it’s not just NY state- the whole county is moving in that duh-rection, one way or another- unless Trump wins and I’m not even sure he can stop it. There are hundreds of trillions in profits to be made- far exceeding profits from ff or gold or diamond minds- at our expense of course. The largest transferal of wealth evuh….
Trump is a big talker, but all he cares about is getting more money for himself, and he even says he will be a dictator. Putin, Mussolini, and Hitler are his idols.
He is a two-time popular vote loser with 5 military deferments and 5 bankruptcies.
The ACA is still here, there is no border wall, never found time for “Infrastructure Week.”
He was wrong on the Central Park 5 and wanted to have those innocent people executed.
He had Biden do all the heavy lifting and take all the political heat on Afghanistan withdrawal and the recession recovery.
He had the record worst 1.54% GDP rate for his term and left office with the country in a recession with the entire country collecting govt stim checks and 3 million jobs lost.
That’s his record.
I’m not a big fan of Trump. I know all of the criticism of him because I’m surrounded by Trump haters. I also don’t care for Biden. I don’t care for most politicians.
But he doesn’t agree with climate lunacy- and he’s the only politician I’ve ever heard who has spoken favorably about forestry. That’s 2 points for Trump.
Extremely negative things can be said about almost every politician. What’s stupid is when anyone can only say negative things about one or a few politicians when they all stink. I think the more you can spread the criticism around- the more honest you’ll be.
We didn’t have open borders under Trump. We didn’t have Ukraine under Trump. We didn’t have a Hamas massacre in Israel under Trump. We didn’t have a crime wave in our big cities under Trump. We didn’t have 7% interest rates under Trump. Real wages grew under Trump.
I see you have a bad case of TDS.
I won’t try to disabuse you of your radical leftwing illusions. I assume you are a radical leftwinger because you are regurgitating all their radical leftwing talking points about Trump.
It is all a pack of leftwing lies.
Trump said he would be a dictator for one day. You left that part out. That’s what people do who want to distort what Trump says: They don’t give us the whole story.
Trump was joking. Can’t you leftwingers take a joke? Of course, you can’t, not when it comes to Trump or any other political opponent that threatens the leftwing’s socialist paradise.
You should stick to reporting on the numbers of deaths from cold and heat. You seem to have that figured out. As for Trump, you don’t have a clue.
Just a couple of corrections.
McCain stopped the ACA repeal not Trump.
Trump the person never went bankrupt.
He built more miles of border wall than Obama, Biden, Clinton combined.
The voters decided When Clinton was elected that deferments don’t matter.
The people that developed the Afghanistan withdrawal plan have said Biden didn’t follow it which was his prerogative.
As to the Central Park 5 he was as wrong about them as the entire Democratic Party was of BLM and Antifa. Trump never knelt for anyone.
It’s hundreds of billions of real losses, with a side of skim for the protagonists.
I live near where a Server Farm once existed. Although they tried to hide the fact, they had Four Diesel Generators on site to assure reliable power. Then the nearby Nuclear power plant decided to join the Climate Change GND and shut down and the utility replaced the NPP power with Wind Power. Within the year I noticed the Diesel Exhausts disappeared and the building was empty.
While the NPP was in operation the only time I lost power at my home, about two miles from the Server Farm, was when there was a severe snowstorm or very severe thunderstorm with very high winds. After the NPP shut down outages longer than a few minuets became a monthly event (on average). The Blinking clock on the Microwave lets me know when it happened and simple subtraction tells me how long it was.
Call in Solyndra Corp. to help with this energy problem….Solyndra was given a boatload ($570 million) of government funds so money would not be a problem.
CO2 from such a plant wouldn’t approach within several orders of magnitude of the natural CO2 and methane put out by just Cicero swamp, only one of several such features in the area. But better put the plant in Rochester, where the existing industrial brownfields and centuries oldwater supply will provide cheaper purchase and reuse of real estate and easier access to Ontario and Niagra power production. Or even better, reactivate one of the abandoned fabs in North Central Texas if you can pry them from their Asian owners (hint, there’s a case study or two from that State that will put the lie to any New York and Micron estimates of long-term use or permanent jobs created).
There are a number of chip plants in the US and if Micron doesn’t own some of them their information can’t be relied on. If they do they should realize that the picture that they’re painting is a cartoon. A 54″ water pipeline? Pumping 7000 gpm out of Lake Ontario? There would be war with Canada. Chip fabs in Arizona and New Mexico are located in what amounts to deserts and seem to operate fine. However, the plan for 100% renewable energy is a joke that even Micron must realize. Under it’s plan as presented above this project won’t even see a shovel ceremony. It’s presented with no form of sincerity.
I grew up in central NYS – it’s well known for lake effect snowfall and year-round cloud cover, so I’m skeptical about the potential for ‘renewable’ energy. In any case, it will be interesting to see if Micron’s investment actually pans out or becomes bailout fodder for the Democrats. Who knows, if NYS gets desperate enough, they might even turn to developing their potentially vast shale gas resources.
They shut down shale gas years ago. It would take an act of g*d or a revolution before they would allow shale gas development again.
Clay, NY.
Isn’t this near the area that recently got 40 inches of snow?
I wonder what is wrong with the Co.’s home state of Idaho.
This location ought to be questioned — like peeling the layers of an onion — until it can be determined there is no rot at the center.
Clay averages ten feet of snow a year and cloudiness that exceeds Seattle
I’m with Bob and John on this one. The whole thing stinks to high heaven. Something is rotten in New York state. It’s probable that a deal has been cut which involves massive subsidies for both the fab plants and for building out the renewable energy infrastructure which is to power those plants. Micron wins big, NYS state government and the Hochul administration have more power over the state’s economy, and the wind & solar energy suppliers take gazillions of dollars to the bank. Most all of it at taxpayer expense.
Micron stock closed Friday at $74.96
They lost $5.34 a share in the past 12 months
Their price to sales ratio was 5.27x
Their market cap is $82.7 billion
Their sales in the past 12 months
were $15.5 billion
Where are they going to get $100 billion?
Is New York state involved in the loan?
What manufacturing company that needs reliable reasonably priced electric power would build a plant in Nut Zero blue New York state … unless the state and federal government are throwing a lot of financial incentives their way?
How much electricity does a semiconductor factory use?
Large semiconductor fabs use as much as 100 megawatt-hours of power each hour, which is more than many automotive plants or oil refineries do. In some markets, electricity can account for up to 30 percent of fab operating costs, so there is significant opportunity in rethinking power usage and management.
Not much room for power usage management when your in the situation of power availability problems
_________________________________
For the love of God please stop kissing up to their imaginary CO2 problem.
When COVID-19 hit in 2020 and the world went into lockdown human CO2 emissions dropped 6%, according to the International Energy Agency, but the increases in CO2 didn’t change at all.
That natural experiment shows that human CO2 emissions are not what is causing the increase in CO2 every year.
https://www.iea.org/reports/global-energy-review-2020/global-energy-and-co2-emissions-in-2020
https://www.co2.earth/monthly-co2
If I were planning to open a factory of any sort in the US I’d be on my way to Colorado:
Even in Oz the revolt is growing against low density solar and wind and the climate changers can’t escape from it-
One-third of farmland at risk as Labor crashes ‘headlong into net zero’ (msn.com)
The lie that renewables are cheaper and green becomes more apparent by the day.
It is clear to anyone that cares to look beyond the headlines. Climate Alarm is simply a cover story to stop industrial processes and manufacturing activities in the Western economies.
All manufacturing consumes energy. Depending on the type of processes, that energy component can become the critical input cost of the business and ultimately decide if the process is worth doing. Will it ever be profitable?
Clearly, if energy cost amounts to 30% of manufacturing costs as is suggested in the article above, then choice of site becomes a key decision in the planning stage.
No project manager would ever give NY state a second look, if they read the state’s policy on energy and future energy, options/cost projections.
With that being the case, this whole project by Micron can only be a grant fishing exercise.
Look out NYorkers, if this gets any traction, you (via your taxes), are about to be fleeced.
The citizens of NY aren’t going to give the power to Micron- Micron will have to pay for it like everyone else. You’d think they’d be happy for such a huuuge investment and all the high paying jobs!
Joseph, if Micron is being completely serious about siting their fab plants in a place like New York state, Micron’s management and New York state’s government had to have reached an ironclad agreement that Micron won’t be paying for the enormous quantities of electricity the plants will need.
The state, and therefore the citizens of New York, will be footing the bill.
The next chapter in the Micron in New York saga will be what happens when it becomes abundantly clear New York State can’t deliver on its promise to supply the volumes of electricity the fab plants need. The answer to that question is likely to be found in the incentives agreement between Micron and New York State. Is that agreement available for public review?
“have reached an ironclad agreement that Micron won’t be paying for the enormous quantities of electricity the plants will need”
do you know that for a fact?
“Do you know that for a fact?”
I do not know it for an absolute fact. However, I can’t imagine that any senior management team would ever agree to build a major chip fab plant in a state where there wasn’t an ironclad guarantee of a future supply of electricity at a price the chip manufacturer could afford.
As I said earlier, the definitive answer to the question is likely to be found whenever the incentive agreement between Micron and the State of New York.becomes available for public review. (Assuming the agreement ever does become available for public review.)
If we could see the detailed agreement I suspect one or two things will be found:
Tim, if these kinds of things are found in the incentive agreement, it’s also likely that a variety of escape clauses are included which leaves each party to the agreement an out if it becomes obvious the overall project cannot move forward in a way which fulfills its grand promises.
A rapid expansion of America’s domestic chip fabrication capacity has now become a national security issue.
Over a decade’s time, many billions of taxpayer dollars might be transferred from federal and state coffers into Micron’s coffers, and into renewable energy supplier coffers, before a sudden cancellation of the NYS chip fab project reveals the scam for what it actually is.
The state is providing Micron with 100 MW of low cost hydro. That means they are taking the power from someone else who gets it now and is just rearranging the attributes because it will not come from new hydro. I have no doubts that there are other promises for power too.
It should be low cost coal power! I presume the state- whatever it’ll cost to get Micron to invest 100B- has thought it worth it. If only the state wasn’t on this mission to save the Earth.
They should definitely plan their facility around a reactor that is not going to happen in our lifetime.
If zero emission energy is required, a series of NuScale 482 Mw SMR plants which adds a 77 MWe reactor module to each six-unit reactor building only as needed to cover expanding chip production capacity would be just the ticket for a computer chip fab plant like the ones supposedly to be constructed by Micron in New York state.
A co-located gas-fired plant with provision for industrial heat would work about as well and for less up front capital cost than would a NuScale SMR plant. The advantage of a co-located NuScale SMR plant with industrial heat capability over a co-located gas-fired plant is that the SMR’s ultra-high reliability over time frames lasting many years into the future is virtually guaranteed.
But new-build nuclear isn’t an option within New York state’s borders. Nor is new-build gas-fired generation an option. Nor are the upgrades needed to the state’s gas pipeline capacity needed to support new gas-fired capacity an option. Additions to the state’s power transmission infrastructure needed to support a network of widely distributed sources of wind & solar electricity are becoming the targets of bitter oposition from environmental groups.
Golly gee willakers …. Given these major issues with New York’s future supply of electricity, what in the world is Micron management’s thinking in choosing to site a major fab plant in a place like New York state? Why is Micron taking such a serious risk in the face of these major energy supply issues?
The whole thing is super sketchy. Just how sketchy it really is can only be determined if and when the incentive agreement between Micron and the State of New York is made available for public review. .
I wish I could disagree with you but I agree with every point you made.
Let’s remember that the federal government has identified the return of domestic chip manufacturing to America as a national security priority, and that both the federal government and the New York state government will be paying for a good portion of the state’s new-build wind and solar energy farms, either directly or indirectly.
The Micron chip plant itself, and the wind & solar energy infrastructure which is supposed to supply the plant’s electricity, both have the look and feel of massively expensive subsidy mining enterprises which will benefit everyone involved except for the federal and state taxpayers who will eventually foot the bill.
Any large power user is a fool to locate a new plant in NY.
There will be tears long before bed time.
I don’t share in the production of milk even though I consume it. I don’t know what all it takes to produce milk, I just buy it as a commodity from my local grocery store.
Why should Micron get involved in the energy production business? They don’t know what all it takes to produce electricity, they just buy it as a commodity from their local power company.
Holy Cow! Every kid’s face, I thought, has gotten warm milk squirted thereon. Ask me how I know?
Small dairies (milk producers) of 30 to 100 ‘cows’ have closed over the past 50 years and consolidation is the name of the game. You can see one here: Lat/Long 46.345986 , -120.068223
Google Earth Street View is from Van Belle Rd
Micron, as with any semiconductor fab, must have continuous power because their tooling requires considerable time to boot. Their renewable power is likely hydro power from Quebec.
The main problem with relying on power from Quebec is that the additions to New York state’s power transmission infrastructure needed to support a variety of emerging energy consuming applications are now becoming the targets of serious opposition from in-state environmental groups.
The other problem is the question of what happens next if and when Quebec suddenly decides it needs some good portion of its own power generation capacity for its own uses.
Any future conflicts over any committments Quebec might have made with New York to supply ever- larger volumes of power become easier to resolve in Quebec’s favor if a future expansion of New York’s in-state power transmission capacity is thwarted by environmental lawsuits.
Quebec hydro is available only when they don’t need it themselves. So it is not available in the winter when loads are high and that makes it a non-starter for Micron
The development of Micron within the Climate Act framework will be a good test of pragmatic environmentalism.”
In my experience this falls into the “all you have to do is” category of ideas. All you have to do is put solar cells on the roof of this huge factory. All you have to do is build a pipe from Lake Ontario. All you need to do is build a bunch of wind turbines. All you have to do is build a bunch of greenhouses and use the factory’s CO2 to grow tomatoes.
Yeah, but how much is that in olympic-size swimming pools.
Has anyone approving this project looked at how many miles it is from Clay to Lake Ontario?
Has the designers of this project counted how often that Syracuse receives over three feet of snow?
At least they have the possibility that they can buy Nuclear Power from Canada. However, approving a reliable, dedicated transmission line has a Snowballs chance in ___ of getting approved.
I’m curious about the wording of this green bullet point:
I am in no way an expert in the chip manufacturing process, but if they’re doing etching they are likely using some form of acid, and likely gobs of it. probably other things too. if they can’t reuse or recycle it, it seems like they would be generating loads of hazardous waste. But if they were generating liquid waste they would be technically, but very misleadingly, sending “zero hazardous waste to landfill.”
“NY State is having major difficulties getting all of their renewable projects finished because of cost issues and interconnection issues, let alone adding this gigantic lead weight to the Camel’s back.”
Wow! I’m an old timer thinking things have become terrible in our society, but it’s far worse than I thought! Imagine a world class company planning to invest $100B in a New York community and this is judged to be a gigantic lead weight on the camel’s back. Even the citizen’s complaint admonishing the company to bring it’s own power with them rather than use up ‘valuable’ NY power! I would hope that Micron would hightail it out of NY on that kind of welcome.
Egad… for a small commission I would direct the company to build a few miles north of there in Quebec where they can get hydro at $CDN 0.03 – 05/kWh. Often for big industry, Hydro Québec will charge the lower amount during the capital recovery period and raise it a couple of cents afterwards. The Quebec Gov also has the best grants and loan guarantees in the country.
The question here is this. What is Micron’s ultimate objective for building their fab plant in New York state as opposed to a place like Quebec where a reliable long-term supply of electricity is readily available?
Is Micron’s true objective to make lots and lots of computer chips? Or is it instead to make some limited number of chips for whatever income those chips might generate while at the same time garnering huge sums of money from direct and indirect federal and state subsidies?
Why is Micron even asked the question about how or where they get electricity from? The fear of the CO2 molecule is driving people batty.