Some Concerns about the Recent Republican Debate

Wallace Manheimer

At the initial Republican debate on August 23, two incidents ought to be disturbing to readers of wattsupwiththat.    First of all, when Vivek Ramaswamy suggested that the country use all of its energy resources, coal, oil, gas, nuclear and whatever else worked, someone shouted to him “What about the climate crisis”.  He said: “The climate crisis is a hoax”, but was immediately shouted down, and this was by a group of conservative Republicans.  Probably more readers of wattsupwiththat would use the word false, rather than hoax.  Nobody thinks this is a big joke. 

The evidence against a climate crisis is voluminous, and it is not appropriate to go into it here.  Suffice it to say that in about 2000, Frederick Seitz, the former head of the National Academy of Sciences, spearheaded a petition, signed by over 30,000 scientists, over 9000 with Ph.D’s denying a climate crisis (http://www.petitionproject.org/).   More recently the Clintel Foundation, centered in Holland put out a climate declaration signed by over 1600 top scientists from around the world (https://clintel.org/world-climate-declaration/) making the same point.  Scientists are anything but united on the assertion of a rapidly approaching, CO2 generated climate crisis.  For someone interested in a summary of the evidence against a climate crisis, this author has written one (Wallace Manheimer,  While the climate always has, and always will change, There is no climate crisis,   Vol. 15, No. 5, p. 116 (2022), Journal of Sustainable Development

https://ccsenet.org/journal/index.php/jsd/article/view/0/47745)

The fact that so many believe in the false climate crisis makes Dick Lindzen, perhaps the leading authority on geophysical fluid dynamics, look more and more like a prophet:

“What historians will definitely wonder about in future centuries is how deeply flawed logic, obscured by shrewd and unrelenting propaganda, actually enabled a coalition of powerful special interests to convince nearly everyone in the world that CO2 from human industry was a dangerous, planet-destroying toxin. It will be remembered as the greatest mass delusion in the history of the world- that CO2, the life of plants, was considered for a time to be a deadly poison.”

The next is Nikki Haley saying that she will scold the developing world and make them not use coal, oil, or gas. The BP corporation publishes its energy outlook. (BP Energy Outlook 2019,  https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp/business-sites/en/global/corporate/pdfs/energy-economics/energy-outlook/bp-energy-outlook-2019.pdf).  It showed that in the more developed world, the so-called OECD countries of 1.2 billion people, the per capita use of energy use is about 5 kW per capita, or 6 terawatts (trillion Watts) total.   Since the entire world uses ~ 14 terawatts, this leaves about 1 kW per capita for the rest of the world.

Let’s see what these power number means. Take a typical American family with two parents and two children in the household. Say both parents work in different places, so they have 2 cars and drive each one the average of 12,000 miles per year. If their cars get 30 miles per gallon (most cars average less), they use together 800 gallons of gas per year. A gallon of gas (or heating oil) has the energy equivalent of about 40 kW hours, and there are about 30 million seconds in a year, so the family’s cars use about 5 kW. Now say they use the average of 500 gallons of heating oil per year to heat their house; this is about 3 kW. Then say that their home electrical use is the average of about 1.3 kW. However, electricity is produced with an efficiency of, of about 1/3, so their electrical use claims another 4 kW total (of say coal, gas or nuclear fuel). Hence this family’s total power use is ~ 12 kW, or about 3 kW per person.   However this is only the personal use, there are many common uses, office buildings, stores, factories, farms, public transportation, airlines, demolition and construction, the military…..

Now think of what life is like in the many countries that average 1 kW per person.  These countries also have factories, airlines, a military, … so the average person probably uses less than ~0.5kW.  These countries are no longer willing to just passively accept this.  They are building up their energy infrastructure as quickly and as economically as possible.  Mostly this means coal.

At a US Department of Energy meeting in Maryland in 2009, a high-ranking member of the Chinese Academy of science attended.  In his talk, he announced that in 2000, the average Chinese used ~ 10% of the power as the average American, and at the time of the meeting was ~ 20%.  He said they would not rest until their per capita energy use is about the same as ours.  (Now is ~ 30-35% of ours)

Here is Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi in Novmber 2021:  The colonial mindset hasn’t gone.  We are seeing from developed nations that the path that made them developed is being closed to developing nations.

Here is Nigerian President Mohamed Bazoum (June 2022):  Africa is being punished by decisions of western countries to end public financing for foreign fuel projects by the end of 2022.  We are going to continue to fight, we have fossil fuel that should be exploited.

For Nicki Haley to think that she can wave her finger and demand that these countries switch to windmills is not only living in a dream world, but also is the height of hubris.

Wallace Manheimer has had a 50+ year career as a scientist at the US Naval Research Laboratory.  He has published ~150 reviewed scientific publications and has recently published a book Mass Delusions, how they harm sustainable energy, fusion and fusion breeding, available on Amazon.

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John the Econ
August 26, 2023 6:25 pm

There are a lot of reasons to reject Ramaswamy as a serious candidate. But if he is going to be the only Republican with the cahones to state this truth, I’ll likely be behind him. Just look at Europe, where the supposed “conservatives” have joined the crisis chorus, and where it’s led them.

Ramaswamy’s weaknesses may not mater if we are permitted to fail under the climate fascism the left has queued up for us.

Walter R. Hogle
Reply to  John the Econ
August 26, 2023 8:41 pm

Same. His foreign policy is radical. But Ukraine seems to be holding its own against Russia. I want to see this end. I want to see Dessler and Mann cry in desperation on Twitter as their grant money disappears and actual science returns. This has gone on too long. Vivek could be our last shot. Trump would’ve been a good choice, but he shot himself in the foot with the January 6 insurrection.

Pat Frank
Reply to  Walter R. Hogle
August 26, 2023 9:08 pm

the January 6 insurrection.

Talk about propaganda kool-aid.

Izaak Walton
Reply to  Pat Frank
August 26, 2023 10:17 pm

Have a look at:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4532751
Trump is clearly debarred from standing for federal office again unless
2/3 of congress vote for him to do so.

rah
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 26, 2023 11:51 pm

BS!

Bryan A
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 27, 2023 12:11 am

Section 3 of amendment 14 can only apply IF the current administration is accepting of ALL the remaining amendments in toto. This includes the 1st…freedom of speech…which the Demon-crats do not allow Conservative Speech without attempting to label it “Hate Speech” and seek to have it limited or censored in public media.
2nd…Right to bear arms…which the Demon-crats want to erode and even take away to “Protect THEM from YOU”
The Biden administration has sold out to Chinese interests, spit on the constitution and actively seeks to nullify much of Our rights afforded by it.

So long as they won’t abide by all of it, they don’t have a right to use any of it.

Perhaps Congress should look at invoking the 25th amendment while the constitution is still enforceable… in the case of Biden AND Harris. Neither is mentally qualified to run a taco stand let alone the free world.

Izaak Walton
Reply to  Bryan A
August 27, 2023 12:17 am

And precisely where in the US constitution does it say that one amendment is applicable only if all the current administration accepts all of the others? That arguement would get you laughed out of court.

Bryan A
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 27, 2023 8:27 am

As with Any Contract, and the Oath of Office IS an enforceable Verbal Contract in any court of law.
“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
Biden has broken that oath by actively seeking to amend or reduce the protections afforded by the constitution and its various amendments.

Bryan A
Reply to  Bryan A
August 27, 2023 10:30 am

He is certainly NOT trying to PRESERVE or PROTECT the Constitution and it’s amendments. He’s trying to ERODE and ELIMINATE our protections

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 27, 2023 4:14 am

From your link:

“Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment forbids holding office by former office holders who then participate in insurrection or rebellion”

The problem for anti-Trumpers here is Trump has not been charged with insurrection or rebellion with regard to Jan 6, so the 14th Amendment does not apply.

The prosecutor mysteriously left those charges out.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 27, 2023 4:47 am

But the talking heads keep repeating the insurrection lie knowing the sheep that watch them will believe it is true.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Tom in Florida
August 27, 2023 6:00 am

One of the Republican presidential hopefuls, Asa Huchinson, former governor of Arkansas, repeated the insurrection lie during the Republican debate, claiming Trump was not eligible to be president because of the Fourteenth Amendment.

Shows how much he knows.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 27, 2023 6:52 pm

Strange name Asa

The second “a” is apparently pronounced like “hole”?

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Rich Davis
August 28, 2023 3:41 am

I think Trump calls him “Ada”, for some reason.

wilpost
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 27, 2023 5:35 am

Because he could not prove them

Tom Abbott
Reply to  wilpost
August 27, 2023 6:01 am

I believe you are correct. If he could have charged Trump with insurrection, he would have charged Trump with insurrection.

Rud Istvan
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 27, 2023 9:26 am

The exact words are ‘engaged in insurrection or rebellion. Then president Trump did not engage in insurrection. Nor did he incite one. Nor were the J6 events at the Capital an insurrection as meant when the 14th Amendment was passed just after the Civil War. An insurrection meant an armed rebellion. The folks who entered the capital were not armed.

Izaak Walton
Reply to  Rud Istvan
August 27, 2023 2:14 pm

Firstly the exact words are “engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof”. Leaving out the “given aid or comfort” is dishonest.

Secondly some of the people involved were armed. And they were organised. It clearly qualifies as an “insurrection” as covered by the usual meaning of those terms. It was designed to stop Congress from doing their constitutional responsibility to count the votes. And Trump was involved from the beginning to the end. Not only did he tell people to show up and “fight like hell” but also has condoned their actions.

karlomonte
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 27, 2023 4:07 pm

The Fed bois were armed, not the protesters.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  karlomonte
August 28, 2023 3:58 am

Yeah, the Feds are the only ones who took a shot and took a life.

We still haven’t been told the circumstances surrounding unarmed Ashley Babbit’s killing. Her killer just got a promotion.

Where’s the investigation of this killing? This killer is celebrated by the Left.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 27, 2023 7:01 pm

Giving aid and comfort to the enemy is a legal term of art Izzy. I suspect that in your dishonesty you were aware of that. It doesn’t mean saying nice things about the bad guys. It means to provide material support or to conceal the enemy or help them recover from battle wounds, etc.

niceguy12345
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 27, 2023 9:24 pm

They were organized how? To find the one weak window? Why on Earth does the Capital has weak windows? Not enough money to buy strong ones?
Or the tunnels? Did they find secret tunnels on historical websites?
Which of these claims of organisation holds out in the face of scrutiny?

Tom Abbott
Reply to  niceguy12345
August 28, 2023 4:00 am

No claim of organization holds up to scutiny.

Izaak is seeing things that are not there.

Sunsettommy
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 28, 2023 12:50 pm

He has been brainwashed by the media and being a leftist means he lack critical thinking skills as he falls on the ideology for his beliefs.

MarkW
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 28, 2023 3:13 pm

He’s seeing what he wants to see.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 28, 2023 3:54 am

“It was designed to stop Congress from doing their constitutional responsibility to count the votes.”

Do you have any evidence for that?

It didn’t look very organized to me. Maybe the undercover FBI agents were organizing a few people. Other than that, it was a disorganized mob that we saw. Some of them being casually escorted around the Capitol Building by the Capitol police, and violence breaking out in other areas for reasons not yet known by the public.

The Democrats threw away a lot of the evidence concerning Jan 6. Why would they throw away evidence if it showed an insurrection underway?

And your complaint above about “aid and comfort” does not apply either, because Trump has not been charged with insurrection or rebellion.

Trump offered 10,000 National Guard to Nancy Pelosi, who was Speaker of the House, at the time, and she turned him down. Trump made the offer twice. Pelosi turned it down twice.

Trump gave a speech right before the march on the Capitol began and told the crowd to demonstrate peacefully.

I don’t see any “aid and comfort” here.

The Democrats have created a false narrative around Jan 6. Some people believe them and some people do not. Put me in the “do not” category because there is no evidence establishing that Trump gave aid and comfort to anyone to overthrow the U.S. government.

rah
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 28, 2023 12:39 pm
Sunsettommy
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 28, 2023 12:54 pm

LOL, Persecutor Smith didn’t charge Trump for Insurrection at all.

The FBI long ago stated there was no organized government take over actions and that the few stupid people carrying firearms had no plan to overthrow and maintain control.

The Few videos allowed to be viewed shows large number of unarmed peaceful people milling around inside the Capital building and the police standing around watching it.

You should stop convincing people how dumb you are……..

Bill Parsons
Reply to  Rud Istvan
August 27, 2023 3:17 pm

The exact words are ‘engaged in insurrection or rebellion. Then president Trump did not engage in insurrection. Nor did he incite one.

He was soothing that crowd from the stage? Trying to make them feel better about losing. Of course he was inciting them to riot. That should be the charge. The fact that he did not participate speaks more to his own cowardice than anything. Go on up the hill now. I’ll be right behind you. Where’s my limo? Was he eating popcorn and watching the news coverage on the big screen as the angry crowd tore apart our nation’s capital?

Why didn’t he stop them?

The fact that Trump issued some pleasing policies by executive order did nothing for the country long term but give dems easy targets using the same tools. One president overruling the previous, and on and on. Bring him back if what you want is governance by vendetta. He didn’t quite ruin the country first time around.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Bill Parsons
August 28, 2023 4:06 am

“He was soothing that crowd from the stage? Trying to make them feel better about losing. Of course he was inciting them to riot. That should be the charge.”

You should read Trump’s speech. If you did, you would see that you are completely wrong in your assessment. Trump did not incite anyone to do anything violent.

Protesting is a time-honored tradition in the United States. Protesting is not synonymous with rioting. Sometimes protests turn into riots, but that is not the goal when you see protests from those on the Right.

Violent riots *are* the goal of the radical Left when they protest. They set out to cause trouble, like the BLM/Antifa riots recently.

But the Right is different.

MarkW
Reply to  Bill Parsons
August 28, 2023 3:16 pm

How is telling people to make their protests known, but do so peacefully, an incitement to do anything?

YOu are seeing what you want to see.

Tony_G
Reply to  MarkW
August 28, 2023 3:35 pm

You don’t understand, MarkW, it’s a secret code. One that only leftists can decipher…

Rich Davis
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 27, 2023 4:23 am

Izzy,
I know you’re an ignorant woke socialist who doesn’t have the intellectual integrity to stop occupying indigenous lands, but even you should know that merely accusing someone of a crime doesn’t disqualify a person of anything.

MarkW
Reply to  Rich Davis
August 27, 2023 8:27 am

You don’t understand the mind of the socialist. They firmly believe that those who oppose them are evil. To them, the act of opposing them proves your guilt. Figuring out the charge is just paper work.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 27, 2023 4:45 am

This is why the left is pushing the insurrection hoax.

Tom Halla
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 27, 2023 6:35 am

Claiming insurrection or rebellion even existed on Jan6 is a stretch. Demanding the surrender of a government fort, and shelling it when refused was the previous criteria, as well as assembling and marching troops on Washington.
Nancy Pelosi is a drama queen to characterize J6 as a rebellion.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Tom Halla
August 27, 2023 9:01 am

Well you gotta admit it’s a bit nerve-racking for old Nancy. She’s seen this all before. She was visiting her second husband at Fort Sumter last time rebellion broke out.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Tom Halla
August 27, 2023 9:35 am

So, are you saying that upon declaring their independence from Britain, i.e., seceding, the colonies should have just sat around passively when the British failed to withdraw their forces?

Tom Halla
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
August 27, 2023 10:57 am

No, I am saying that the Boston Massacre was a riot, not a rebellion.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Tom Halla
August 27, 2023 12:56 pm

‘…the Boston Massacre was a riot, not a rebellion.’

True enough, since it preceded the Declaration of Independence by more than six years.

So when does a riot become an insurrection? When raiding a Federal arsenal? Burning down cities? Wandering around the Rotunda? It all seems very squishy and politically driven.

What I believe, however, and the basis for my question, is that neither the American Colonies, going to war with Britain, nor SC, firing on Fort Sumter, qualify as insurrectionists, since they were justly exercising their rights as independent and sovereign entities.

Tom Halla
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
August 27, 2023 1:43 pm

The issue at Ft Sumter was that Lincoln did not recognize Jefferson Davis’ claim that states were independently sovereign, and had a right to secession. Andrew Jackson nearly fought South Carolina over that same issue, so that position was not new with Lincoln and the Republicans.
Back on the main point, Lexington/Concord was a rebellion, with the rebels denying the right of the Crown to disarm them. Force in a political disagreement is rebellion, with at least one side denying the legitimacy of the others actions. The British government was in violation of The Act of Settlement of 1688, that Protestants could not be disarmed. The British position was that the colonists had no rights they were obliged to respect.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Tom Halla
August 27, 2023 2:32 pm

And as we all know, Lincoln’s belief in absolute Federal supremacy ‘prevailed’ under force of arms. If we’re ok with that, we deserve to get rolled on climate change, or any other issue our ‘democracy’ holds dear.

Tom Halla
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
August 27, 2023 2:44 pm

I have no sympathy with Lost Cause advocates. Ironically, the Southerners made it a matter of force by secession. There was never a sufficient majority to ratify a constitutional amendment to ban slavery, which was what the Civil War was about, Southern protestations aside.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Tom Halla
August 27, 2023 6:53 pm

‘I have no sympathy with Lost Cause advocates.’

Nor do I. In a similar vein, I don’t have any truck with the Lincoln Cult, either. My guess is that people on both sides realized in 1865 that they had created a disaster that needed to be hidden behind their respective ‘myths’.

‘There was never a sufficient majority to ratify a constitutional amendment to ban slavery…’

True.

‘…, which was what the Civil War was about,..’

Partly. There were many other drivers behind secession, particularly the issue of tariffs that had festered long before Andrew Jackson’s administration.

To make a long story short, both sides blew it, and we’re still paying the price today.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Tom Halla
August 27, 2023 4:24 pm

Yes, that was the first time Nancy experienced rebellion, back in 1776.

Tombstone Gabby
Reply to  Tom Halla
August 27, 2023 4:54 pm

G’Day Tom,

“The Act of Settlement of 1688, that Protestants could not be disarmed.”

The relevant article from the English Bill of Rights reads:

That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law;

The ‘kicker’ is the last four words. Compare those words to “… shall not be infringed.”

Tom Halla
Reply to  Tombstone Gabby
August 27, 2023 5:31 pm

Rather like the “notwithstanding” clause in the Canadian constitution. The Brits were still in violation, though, as no actual law had been passed by Parliament disarming the colonists, only Crown orders.

Tombstone Gabby
Reply to  Tom Halla
August 27, 2023 5:54 pm

G’Day Tom

I must admit I’m not familiar with the Canadian Constitution. More research.

The second item: I don’t know just what the ‘law making’ powers of colony governors were, if any. Even more research.

I just ran “Crown orders” through DuckDuckGo – no joy. After supper I’ll check Blackstone, see if there’s anything there. Thanks for giving me something to do.

History is fun…..

Tom Halla
Reply to  Tombstone Gabby
August 27, 2023 5:58 pm

It is a paraphrase, but much of the bill of offenses in the Declaration of Independence blamed King George, not Parliament.

Tombstone Gabby
Reply to  Tom Halla
August 27, 2023 8:40 pm

G’Day again Tom,

Yup, George was something of a problem.

The bit about the local governor’s powers? Oglethorpe, the first governor of the Georgia colony, declared ‘prohibition’ in the colony in the 1730’s. The usual (as was repeated in the 1920’s) boats coming down the coast, horseback from South Carolina, and home brewing. The entire governing ‘company’ said “No drinking”. That didn’t work. The English parliament passed a law. Ignored. After that ‘management’ gave up trying. As I typed that, it hit me. The colonies were ‘for-profit’ businesses, with shareholders. The King got his share as well. The colony leaders were not a form of ‘government’.

So yes, the English actions at Concord and Lexington were illegal per the English Bill of Rights.

Thanks for the replies. Forced me to stop and think for a bit.

Richard Page
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
August 27, 2023 5:16 pm

If it feels a bit squishy and politically driven then you are pretty much correct – it is. Generally the ‘winners’ get to determine the status of events, mostly to give themselves political legitimacy, of course.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
August 27, 2023 5:31 pm

Frank,
As Americans we ought not look too closely at the justifications given for the American Revolution, for we must ultimately recognize in that an implied claim that any group of people should be able to break away from our Constitution whenever in their sole opinion, government has become destructive to the ends of securing the unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Clearly that was a poetic fig leaf adorning a raw act of force.

That would clearly justify the secession of the southern states, regardless of whether they are or were sovereign states, for the colonies clearly were not sovereign yet did break away. They asserted that it [became] necessary… to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station…

Even if we assert that the southern states freely consented to a perpetual union in 1781, how can an unborn generation be justly bound eighty or two hundred fort-two years later?

The “more perfect union” formed by the Constitution of 1787 can make no more of a special claim on future generations than Magna Carta held over Englishmen from 1215 until 1776. True enough, the Articles of Confederation referred to a perpetual Union, which only purportedly became more perfect in 1787. So southern state secession in 1861, while consistent with the Declaration’s principles was clearly unconstitutional. All officers who swore solemn oaths to protect and defend the Constitution but did not do so, violated the law and broke their word, and thus dishonored themselves.

We do not need to argue about the nature of the states’ sovereignty under the Constitution or Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union if we understand that to be a moot point given that there is no distinction to be made between the Revolution and Secession.

Ultimately the only question that remains is whether we have the will to live under the Constitution or not. Well, I do.

—-
Reference: Declaration of Independence
…When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness…

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Rich Davis
August 27, 2023 10:13 pm

Rich,

A very thoughtful (and thought provoking) comment.

I think what makes America ‘exceptional’, relative to any nation that had existed up to the time of its founding, is the Declaration. As you note, it clearly states that governments are only justified to the extent that they ‘secure’ inalienable rights and should be abolished if they become ‘destructive’ of these rights. I don’t consider this a ‘poetic fig leaf’, but a logical culmination of the Enlightenment. The Declaration, then, is our first foundational document, so if we decide that it is no longer binding, we’re lost.

Regardless of the status of the colonies before the Revolution, they certainly became individual, independent and sovereign states upon executing separate peace treaties with Britain. And they remained sovereign under the Articles of Confederation, notwithstanding the use of the term ‘perpetual’, which simply meant that the Articles would remain in effect until voluntarily terminated.

So this brings us to the creation and adoption of the Constitution, our second foundational document. The debate since its adoption has always been whether it represents a voluntary association of sovereign states or if these somehow lost their sovereignty upon ratification. My opinion, based on the debates that took place at the Constitutional Convention and during the individual state ratification conventions, is that the states retained their sovereignty and their right to reclaim any of the limited powers they delegated to the Federal government.

You ask an excellent question re. how people born decades or centuries after the adoption of these documents can remain bound by them. Many anarchists, which I am not, would point out that there is, in fact, an insurmountable problem with the assumption of ‘political authority’. My belief is that we are going to be ‘governed’ by some political entity whether we like it of not, so it is in our own best interest to actively defend a form of government that best conforms to the Enlightenment ideals delineated in the Declaration.

However, as these are just documents, the governing ideals therein have to be defended against those who would seek to diminish our inalienable rights. Obviously, the main line of defense is an electorate that only elects or appoints representatives and officers, including judges, that will defend our rights.

But what happens if all three (four?) branches of the Federal government act to curtail our rights? At that point, only the people of a state would have the wherewithal to act. This could either be via ‘nullification’ of unconstitutional laws, which Jefferson called the ‘rightful remedy’ to Federal overreach, or ultimately via secession, which obviously would be a ‘last resort’.

Are these remedies ‘legal’? I suppose that will depend on circumstances, which we can only hope don’t evolve to the point where we actually need to find out.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
August 28, 2023 6:14 pm

Frank,
As I said before, the logic of the Declaration of Independence renders moot any question of whether states retain and/or voluntarily delegate sovereignty. Nothing in the Declaration provides a limiting principle other than the consent of the governed. If a county or a town or a precinct or a household were to pronounce itself aggrieved and declare its independence, provided such declaration were made after a democratic vote, what do you point to as a valid impediment?

Now obviously Lincoln and the Republicans did not subscribe to your interpretation of the term ‘perpetual Union’ as something akin to a Las Vegas marriage. While I doubt the validity of binding future generations without recourse, the Constitution of 1787 did not in fact bind without recourse. It did not explicitly envision secession but through the amendment process, it was implicitly possible. Just not unilaterally. A constitutional amendment allowing for secession could have been passed. Indeed could be passed even now.

I don’t think that breaking up the Union is a course of action that should have been contemplated nor ever should be contemplated. Nor should we minimize the authority of the Constitution. It does trouble me greatly that if the majority ceases to revere the wisdom of the founding fathers, the great American experiment may come to an end.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Rich Davis
August 29, 2023 10:15 am

Rich,

I’m not an anarchist. There are nearly infinite benefits to political ‘union’ in terms of economics, security, etc., hence, nearly infinite incentives to work through grievances. The issue is what recourse, short of violent conflict, do people have if those in authority abrogate their fundamental rights? Neither nullification nor secession involve violence, unless the abrogating authority responds by sending in the troops.

The sovereignty of the people and the states didn’t disappear in 1787. The Constitution would never have been ratified if it hadn’t been understood that the vast majority of governing powers would be retained within our homes, communities and states. As an aside, I would also mention that several states explicitly included the right to secede in their ratification documents.

One last point. It would have been strange to enumerate the powers of the Federal government within AND append a Bill of Rights to the Constitution if the Founders had intended to create a ‘national’ government of unlimited powers.

niceguy12345
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
August 27, 2023 9:30 pm

Attacking the WH maiming dozens of SS agents is no insurrection.
Some randoes moving stuff around and putting their feet on a desk, is one.
/s

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Tom Halla
August 28, 2023 4:10 am

Nancy Pelosi is an evil, conniving partisan radical Leftist.

She is/was one of the Democrats most responsible for the destruction of the United States as we know it.

karlomonte
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 27, 2023 8:12 am

What are your ConLaw credentials?

MarkW
Reply to  karlomonte
August 27, 2023 8:28 am

As a leftist, he believes himself to be an expert in everything.

karlomonte
Reply to  MarkW
August 27, 2023 8:42 am

Of course, silly me.

Izaak Walton
Reply to  karlomonte
August 27, 2023 2:13 pm

I don’t have any. Which is why I pointed to an article written by those that do. Can you point to a similar article that argues against their case?

karlomonte
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 27, 2023 4:09 pm

Yet you swallow all the leftist-marxist propaganda hook, line, and sinker.

MarkW
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 27, 2023 8:24 am

Since Trump hasn’t done what he is charged with doing, your claims are as meaningless as everything else you have written.

niceguy12345
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 27, 2023 9:16 pm

But they voted to impeach him on that affair so now the issue is settled. He was judged end of story.
No do over.

Walter R. Hogle
Reply to  Pat Frank
August 26, 2023 11:55 pm

Yea I guess it was all made up huh Pat? Another hoax perpetuated by the government?

Hoyt Clagwell
Reply to  Walter R. Hogle
August 27, 2023 2:03 am

A bunch of unarmed yokels taking selfies in the rotunda is hardly what any reasonable person would call an “insurrection”. The U.S. isn’t so fragile that a small angry mob can take it over. If you think they could then you expose yourself as an irrational person.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Hoyt Clagwell
August 27, 2023 4:32 am

The Capitol police opened the doors for them in some instances.

The Capitol police escorted the fellow wearing the horns all over the place. The Media made this guy out to be an insurrectionist.

And we still don’t know how the FBI was involved. Were they there to observe, or to agitate?

Why did the Democrats destroy the evidence they collected about Jan 6, after they lost the majority in the House of Representatives? Thousands of hours of video and testimoney apparently gone. Why would Democrats do that if they had a strong case against Trump?

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 27, 2023 4:50 am

Do not forget that the committee had made any inquiry about Pelosi off limits. No one was even allowed to mention her name. Now that Trump has been charged about that incident, he has the right to subpoena those docs and Pelosi herself. Democrats will not let that happen.

wilpost
Reply to  Tom in Florida
August 27, 2023 5:37 am

The Committee destroyed the docs

Tom Abbott
Reply to  wilpost
August 27, 2023 6:06 am

As the old saying goes: The best laid plans of mice and men, sometimes go awry.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  wilpost
August 27, 2023 9:12 am

Yes, so they could not be given to the defense even if they were ordered to by a judge.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Tom in Florida
August 27, 2023 6:05 am

Yes, an actual trial would be very interesting. Many cans of worms would be opened.

I’ll be surprised if it goes to trial.

Simon
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 27, 2023 5:57 pm

The Capitol police opened the doors for them in some instances. The Capitol police escorted the fellow wearing the horns all over the place.”
Do you have any evidence of this? I mean that is quite a bizarre situation if that is true?

Tom Halla
Reply to  Simon
August 27, 2023 8:51 pm

The surveillance videos Tucker Carlson ran, shortly before Fox fired him.

Simon
Reply to  Tom Halla
August 27, 2023 10:28 pm

Well where is it? Surely it’s on you tube? Got a link?

Simon
Reply to  Tom Halla
August 27, 2023 10:35 pm

Is it this one?

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Simon
August 28, 2023 4:38 am

No, that’s not the one, Simon.

Of course, you knew that, didn’t you.

Simon
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 28, 2023 12:58 pm

No actually, I didn’t. It’s the only one I could find. I genuinely want to see what you are talkng about.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Simon
August 28, 2023 4:27 am

I don’t have the evidence, but I’ve seen the evidence on tv. I believe it was aired on the Tucker Carlson show when he was still employed by Fox News. They showed about five minutes of video where several Capitol police were escoting the “horns” guy around the Capitol Building and even opening doors for him and showing him around some of the rooms.

It *was* a bizarre situation, made even more bizarre by the “horns” Guy (I think he was the leader of QAnon) being charged later with insurrection. All he did was wander around the Capitol Building with Capitol police escorting him. That doesn’t look like insurrection to me.

Simon
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 28, 2023 2:17 pm

Well if you can find that movie I would love to see it.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Simon
August 29, 2023 3:26 am

Do this search on google:

Tucker Carlson and Capitol Building video and QAnon

There is a whole page of references to this video.

I’ll let you choose which one you want to look at.

Simon
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 27, 2023 6:03 pm

Tom. How can you watch this and not come to the conclusion that this was a violent insurrection?

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Simon
August 28, 2023 4:44 am

Simon, there was some violence that day. I call it a riot, not an insurrection.

A riot can happen any time emotional people get together. It doesn’t have to be planned, it happens spontaneously. Somebody starts a shoving match and then others get involved, and pretty soon you have a riot on your hands.

People can get caught up in riots, in the emotion of it all, and will do things under those circumstances that they wouldn’t normally do. I have personally experience the mob mentality and the suprisingly strong hold it gets on you. It really is easy to get caught up in the emotion.

That’s what happened Jan. 6. Not insurrection, just human emotions out of control in some areas around the Capitol Building.

At the same time, the Capitol police are giving a guided tour of the Capitol Building to the guy wearing the horns on his head.

karlomonte
Reply to  Simon
August 28, 2023 7:38 am

The ones who were violent were Antifa, BLM, FBI CHSs dressed in MAGA disguises. This has been shown over and over (except in the Fake News of course)

Simon
Reply to  karlomonte
August 28, 2023 12:57 pm

The ones who were violent were Antifa, BLM, FBI CHSs dressed in MAGA disguises.”
Complete and utter grade “A”, first class bullshit. What a clown.

karlomonte
Reply to  Simon
August 28, 2023 11:25 pm

Go choke on your Little Red Book, Maoist.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  karlomonte
August 29, 2023 3:30 am

Yes, that needs lots more investigation. Especially the role the FBI played.

karlomonte
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 29, 2023 7:33 am

It takes months of preparation to put Confidential Human Sources into position…

cilo
Reply to  Walter R. Hogle
August 27, 2023 3:09 am

…I guess it was all made up…

You cannot be so obtuse as to think otherwise.
We were watching that show from here in Africa, on RT (who still looks at CNN?). We saw the ANTIFAs changing into “yokel costume” and MAGA hats. We saw Epps riling up the crowd, we saw his military squad using military tactics to “lead the charge”. Oh, and how every thinking person laughed at those cartoon pipe bombs!
We could see it from the other side of the world, You Dupliciousness, we could SEE, in real time, the final fall of American Democracy to a fake uprising.
Why don’t you write us a nice 500-word essay on Soros’ 2014/15 statement: “2016 will be the last democratic elections in America”. I knew Trump was instated to make us hate democracy, but I admit not seeing that fake uprising to take the form of elderly folk strolling around the tourist part of a public building.
Did you climax when they shot Ashley, Walt?

Tom Abbott
Reply to  cilo
August 27, 2023 4:35 am

The Capitol policeman who killed Ashley Babbit, just got a promotion.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 27, 2023 4:52 am

If he was white and she black it would have been given the George Floyd treatment. But nope… no charges, no investigation, no protests.

Simon
Reply to  Tom in Florida
August 27, 2023 7:51 pm
Tom Abbott
Reply to  Simon
August 29, 2023 3:31 am

Yeah, and my internal investigation has cleared Trump of all charges.

Simon
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 27, 2023 7:50 pm

He was also exonerated in an internal probe, so why shouldn’t he be able to progress his career like every other officer doing their best for the nation. I mean either you support law and order or you don’t?
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/capitol-police-officer-who-shot-ashli-babbitt-exonerated-internal-probe-n1277336

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Walter R. Hogle
August 27, 2023 4:25 am

“Yea I guess it was all made up huh Pat? Another hoax perpetuated by the government?”

Well, I’m not Pat, but, yes, it was all made up. Everything Trump is charged with is bogus. Trumped-up, if you will.

The radical Democrats and their mouthpiece, the Leftwing Media, figure is they throw enough lies against the wall, that some people will believe them, and they are correct.

Based on the law and the facts I’m aware of, Trump is not guilty of anything, and I believe eventually this will be shown to be the case.

Why would Trump offer to send 10,000 National Guard to protect the U.S. Capitol Building twice, if he were planning on overthrowing the government? Nancy Pelosi, turned the troop offer down twice.

Every bad thing you know about Trump is a distortion of reality. Think about it. You have been horribly misled. Deliberately. And, unfortunately, you are not alone.

Simon
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 27, 2023 5:59 pm

Well, I’m not Pat, but, yes, it was all made up. Everything Trump is charged with is bogus. Trumped-up, if you will.”
Then how do you explain the truck loads of evidence? And the statements from people?

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Simon
August 28, 2023 5:00 am

“Then how do you explain the truck loads of evidence? And the statements from people?”

Being rather vague, aren’t you, Simon?

I know evidence when I see it, Simon. I haven’t seen any evidence of Trump doing anything illegal.

I see a lot of unsubstantiated assumptions and assertions about Trump, but no actual evidence of anything.

Just like in climate science. Lots of people are convinced that CO2 is a dangerous gas even though there is not one shred of evidence establishing that it is dangerous, just a lot of unsubstantiated assumptions and assertions.

Simon
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 28, 2023 2:26 pm

It really worries me Tom that you don’t read more widely. Trump is in perilous territory now and really is staring at jail time. When it happens his followers are going to claim it is all nonsense, but that will only be because they haven’t read the full evidence. These trials are going to be covered from start to finish in all the media. I for one want to get an honest handle on the evidence, so I will watch a variety of channels including Fox. I would urge you to do the same or you may be in for a big surprise when the verdicts roll in.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Simon
August 29, 2023 3:47 am

“It really worries me Tom that you don’t read more widely. Trump is in perilous territory now and really is staring at jail time.”

This is wishful thinking, Simon. I think you are going to be disappointed.

It’s the American people who are in perilous territory because it is the radical Democrats who are trying to steal their Republic out from under them by falsely accusing the leader of the oppostion party of crimes.

It’s Election Interference. It’s a Trampling of the U.S. Constitution.

I think we should just wait and see how all this unfolds and we can discuss the particulars. Right now, all we have are charges from political partisans, including those in the federal government. At some point they are going to have to prove their claims. That’s what I’m looking for, the proof they claim they have.

And then there is the argument about whether any of these charges are even appropriate for a president.

The radical Democrats are abusing the American Justice System and Americans are starting to take notice. I saw a black man on tv last night (some kind of influencer) calling on his fellows to vote for Trump because “the Man” was persecuting Trump just like “the Man” persecutes blacks.

Wouldn’t that be a kick in the head.

karlomonte
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 29, 2023 7:36 am

As a true-blue marxist, Simon is OK with using any means to reach his goal of “getting Trump”.

His hate will destroy him.

Sunsettommy
Reply to  Simon
August 28, 2023 1:04 pm

You have IGNORED the evidence presented for several years now and the early videos does show that some doors were opened by the police but in other places some rioters would break their way in but even them most people in a few thousands just walked around peacefully with the police standing by.

It is just a tiny number of people who acted riotously that garners most of the trespassing and Vandalism charges most people just walked out went home peacefully.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Walter R. Hogle
August 27, 2023 5:01 am

Walter I’m surprised and disappointed in you. As “mostly peaceful protests” go, it seems that that one had deadly force used only AGAINST it.

Hardly an insurrection when it used no weapons. Only death being one of the protesters? Where are the burnt shops and murdered bystanders as in the BLM/Antifa “Summer of Love”?

If the bar is set so low on insurrection then isn’t Kamala Harris an accessory to insurrection by raising money to bail out the Antifa thugs? Start the impeachment hearings!

Is civil disobedience a right reserved to redressing only some injustices and not others? If contesting an election is an attack on “Democracy!”, how do you assess Al Gore, Hillary Clinton, Stacy Abrams? What happened to equal protection under the law? Donald Trump doesn’t deserve that?

For the record, I am very much a reluctant and unenthusiastic supporter of Donald Trump.

goracle
Reply to  Walter R. Hogle
August 27, 2023 6:00 am

Walter, people did go into the Capitol building, but it was not an insurrection.

MarkW
Reply to  Walter R. Hogle
August 27, 2023 8:29 am

As a matter of fact, it was all made up. There is already a long list of hoaxes perpetuated by government.

gcor
Reply to  MarkW
August 27, 2023 11:05 am

You’re quite delusional.

Simon
Reply to  gcor
August 27, 2023 7:18 pm

If there is a long list then MarkW would be able to list them. But Mark makes things up.

MarkW
Reply to  Simon
August 28, 2023 3:31 pm

Would you ask for proof that water was wet?

Simon
Reply to  MarkW
August 28, 2023 3:42 pm

Typical subject changing by MarkW. I want to see our “long list of hoaxes perpetuated by government.”

Mike Maguire
Reply to  Pat Frank
August 27, 2023 7:45 am

People will believe messages that line up with what they want to believe.

The planet is PROVEN to be greening up from the role of a beneficial gas in the indisputable law of photosynthesis and people want to believe in messages that tell them how to think if we have any chance to save the planet.
Who could be against saving the planet?

For 2 months, Trump tried to overturn the most PROVEN secure presidential election in history, including the use of diabolical, illegal schemes.
A clear violation of the Constitution and treasonous by all objective standards. Regardless of whether they can get a conviction, anybody that denies the blatantly clear evidence is just denying it because of what they “want to believe”.

I supported most of Trump’s agenda, especially with regards to energy/climate.

However, sincerely applying the scientific method in ALL realms, means letting the objective facts determine conclusions. Not the ones that tell us what we want to be true.
It means NOT being part of a tribe or ideology that has a belief system based on politics.
It means using critical thinking ALL the time, not just vetting and scrutinizing news items that we DON’T want to believe and giving a free pass to items that we want to believe or that define our tribe’s ideology.

It means having the humility to see flaws in information that tells us what we want to believe and enough honestly to adjust our thinking so that it lines up with authentic truths.
ALL the time, not just when it serves a purpose!

karlomonte
Reply to  Mike Maguire
August 27, 2023 8:15 am

A clear violation of the Constitution and treasonous by all objective standards.

Um, no. Quit reading the Fake News, it warps your mind.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  karlomonte
August 28, 2023 5:02 am

Good advice.

MarkW
Reply to  Mike Maguire
August 27, 2023 8:39 am

Speaking of believing only what you want to believe.
Instead of dealing with all the facts that have been presented, Mike just declares that there were no problems with the election. Why, because that’s what his leaders have told him to believe.

gcor
Reply to  MarkW
August 27, 2023 10:44 am

What’s your evidence there were any significant problems with the election?

karlomonte
Reply to  gcor
August 27, 2023 1:11 pm

Falsely ceasing counting, sending pole watchers home, then Ruby Freeman and daughter pulling big suitcases filled with “ballots” without provenance, then scanning them over and over and over. These two people could have easily “voted” 50,000 times.

gcor
Reply to  karlomonte
August 27, 2023 2:57 pm

You have no evidence of that. Start citing sources please.

karlomonte
Reply to  gcor
August 27, 2023 4:10 pm

Shuttup.

Request DENIED.

Simon
Reply to  gcor
August 27, 2023 7:24 pm

karlomonte is a hard line Trumpeteer. He will believe anything the Mango Mussolini says. Anything, including the absolutely false and frankly disgusting accusations about Ruby Freeman even though thoe accusations have had a terrible impact on her life. Beyond vile…..
https://www.npr.org/2023/07/26/1190173929/rudy-giuliani-georgia-election-workers

karlomonte
Reply to  Simon
August 28, 2023 7:43 am

NPR! This is your “source”?

The Fascists are your buds the marxo-democrats trying institute a one-party dictatorship in America.

Clown.

Simon
Reply to  karlomonte
August 28, 2023 1:08 pm

It doesn’t matter what the source is, you can verify this in any number of places. The fact in Rudi Giuliani has admitted he lied. That would be good enough for most people given he’s the one who bought the accusation. But not for karlomonte and his truth filter. Nope… still believe Trump like a good minion….

karlomonte
Reply to  Simon
August 28, 2023 11:30 pm

Pretty much everything you type is a lie, so just like the bad old days in the Soviet Union, I can go with the opposite and be on solid ground.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  MarkW
August 28, 2023 5:05 am

If the Jan. 6 persecution goes forward for Trump, this will give Trump the opportunity to show the problems with the 2020 election that the radical Left wants to gloss over and pretend didn’t happen.

Tom Halla
Reply to  Mike Maguire
August 27, 2023 11:04 am

92% nationwide turnout is not hinky? Or 105% registration in Georgia? Or a six standard deviation increase in turnout in Wisconsin?
What flavor was the KoolAid?

gcor
Reply to  Tom Halla
August 27, 2023 11:14 am

All of those claims have explanations that don’t require the need to claim election fraud. Besides that, do you have any sources I could view each of those claims?

Rich Davis
Reply to  Mike Maguire
August 27, 2023 11:41 am

Mike I endorse your point about using critical thinking and not conforming our statements to what our political tribe expects us to say. I like to think that I do just that. But what on earth are you talking about with PROVEN secure?

My father used to live with me for several years and then moved to stay with my brother about 8 years ago. He’s still registered to vote in my town. He died in 2018. Each time I voted, I let the polling people know that my dad’s name should be removed. I wonder how many times he voted after his funeral.

There’s video evidence of mules depositing multiple ballots into drop boxes. Thousands of mules whose geolocation metadata shows them repeatedly visiting multiple dropbox locations in the middle of the night. Trucks delivering ballots into Pennsylvania from New Jersey. Hundreds of ballots where the only vote cast was for Biden.

Is it provable that any of those actions constituted election fraud? No, it was allowed for a family member to drop off mail-in ballots. Maybe some Pennsylvania mail was processed in New Jersey. Maybe a couple of thousand people have odd habits driving around in the middle of the night.

Is it believable that none of that was fraud? Please! Where is your critical thinking?

gcor
Reply to  Rich Davis
August 27, 2023 11:53 am

Critical thinking shows that there was no significant fraud for either Biden or Trump. 2,000 Mules is a joke.

starzmom
Reply to  gcor
August 27, 2023 12:39 pm

Critical thinking is not evidence. It results in a thought out opinion. Your opinion may differ, but there is certainly evidence that fraud could have occurred. Likely we will never know. But we have to be more vigilant than we have been.

karlomonte
Reply to  gcor
August 27, 2023 1:12 pm

What is your evidence for this claim?

gcor
Reply to  karlomonte
August 27, 2023 2:58 pm

The burden of proof is on you, not me. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Mike Maguire
Reply to  gcor
August 27, 2023 10:58 pm

I busted the science fiction video of 2,000 Mules at the links below from my forum, as well as including my findings about real election fraud:

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/94482/

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/87219/

Many more fact checks like this below busting Dinesh’s complete nonsense:

https://www.jan-6.com/2000-mules?gclid=Cj0KCQjw6KunBhDxARIsAKFUGs9T9R9MI9hetmrWz2Ho5agsZeHl1Rb8k9KrV3uZa-2EGXCm7sSzC7kaAsxAEALw_wcB

You know it must be bad when Fox and Newsmax wouldn’t even cover it!

https://www.newsweek.com/dsouza-targets-fox-news-says-network-banning-mention-2000-mules-1706047

Dinesh made some nice money selling his book 2,000 Mules to Rs that bought it to read things they want to believe in.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Mike Maguire
August 28, 2023 2:12 pm

Mike
I have always maintained that once Republicans failed to block the use of dropboxes and ballots automatically mailed out to all registered voters, it was TOO LATE to prevent or prove fraud.

I happily grant you that it isn’t possible to PROVE fraud from the 2000 Mules geolocation data in a court of law to a criminal trial standard of evidence. (Beyond a shadow of a doubt)

However the geolocation data is NOT meaningless. It establishes at the very least extremely unusual patterns of behavior. Suppose that the unsubs were NOT stuffing dropboxes. Why were they driving around circuits within at most a few hundred feet of many different dropboxes in the middle of the night? On more than one night?

Have you EVER done anything similar to that?

Do you know ANYONE who has ever done something like that?

Can you provide any conceivable innocent explanation for that behavior?

No defendant has to offer any such explanation. But to make a claim that the election was PROVEN secure, you at least have to provide a credible explanation for how that behavior is not circumstantial evidence of fraud.

So sure, 2000 Mules can only supply circumstantial evidence that isn’t admissible in a court of law. So you establish that to my satisfaction, but that is by no means sufficient to say that the 2020 election was the most PROVEN secure election. That’s absurd.

Mike Maguire
Reply to  Mike Maguire
August 27, 2023 12:49 pm

I figured that post would not be well received.

With respect to the facts, unlike using ONLY those that you get from tuning into the sources that tell you the news that you WANT to hear/read, I did my own objective, comprehensive, INDEPENDENT search, using many hundreds of hours of time and communicated at these 3 dozen threads(just a partial list) at my forum. This compilation doesn’t even include much on his most diabolical scheme to use fake electors.

Election night fraud

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/87530/#87549

Despite wanting Trump to win and be innocent, every authentic fact shows otherwise.
++++++++++++++++

I did the same thing to determine authentic science about the COVID vaccination (being a scientist was helpful):

 COVID vaxx DISinformation/information compilation

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/87451/
++++++++

In case you think I affiliate with 1 political side and am biased, I did the same thing to bust the blatantly corrupt Mueller investigation which was truly a “Witch Hunt” exactly as President Trump claimed which included collusion by the DOJ, MSM and Dems to destroy the legitimacy of Trump’s 2016 election win and to destroy Donald Trump.

Re: Re: Durham’s final report

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/95210/#95212
++++++++++++

On all of those topics above as well as most others, people have already decided what they want to believe and only go to sources that interpret the world to line up with our confirmation bias.

This is actually my FAVORITE site because it represents more authentic truth/science on the fake climate crisis than any other X 10.

However, it’s not always easy for me to intentionally go to numerous other sites/sources that state things that disagree with me (as a meteorologist for over 4 decades) to try to understand where they are coming from.

But you have to do it to:

  1. Truly understand what their position is and why they have it. Some of them are brilliant people. Some of them have good points.
  2. Be able to understand better why you are right and they are wrong but most importantly, why they might be right about something(s), which mean you might be wrong.
  3. Most importantly, to gain objective discernment that incorporates sincere adjustments to IMPROVE on your position. If the science really is not settled, then this mentality is the key to learning what is not known today.
  4. What are the chances that what you think that you know today is 100% indisputable truth and authentic fact? Whatever portion of that which is wrong, will be wrong forever if you’ve decided it is right and intentionally, only go to sources that tell you it’s right.
Rich Davis
Reply to  Mike Maguire
August 27, 2023 2:13 pm

Mike I appreciate your effort to be objective and seek truth convenient or otherwise. I didn’t downvote you. I believe that you’re sincere.

I’m not clear on how you imagine that voter fraud can be detected after mail-in ballots have been separated from their mailers. It’s my understanding that in many instances the mailers have been “lost” as well. How do you know that there were not batches of fake ballots introduced without any mailers, or bogus replacement ballots introduced after separating?

I sincerely do not know if the information I have received is accurate. It’s my contention that certain things are unknowable. Even if some of the people eventually confess to their crimes we won’t actually know with certainty that they are telling the truth.

It’s easy to call someone a conspiracy theorist if they posit these scenarios and to say that it couldn’t happen at a scale sufficient to change the outcome. But the outcome could have been changed in key states with only a small margin.

What remains in my mind is the implausibility that Biden received more votes than Obama while Trump received more votes than he received in 2016.

Mike Maguire
Reply to  Rich Davis
August 27, 2023 10:33 pm

Thanks Rich,
Thanks for a respectful response and I have not doubt that you are convinced too.
I’m very familiar with the argument of it being implausible for Biden to receive more votes than Obama.
After all, Obama was a MUCH more popular candidate.

What you are missing is that Biden wasn’t running against Obama(he would have been crushed) and since 2012, the winner of presidential elections is NOT based on having favor-ability ratings greater than unfavorable which determined most past elections.

Starting in 2016, the candidates running had higher UNfavorable numbers than favorable numbers.
When people voted in 2016, Donald Trump pulled the upset because so many Ds were NOT Clinton and millions stayed home rather than vote for either candidate.Clinton didn’t win, because there were less NOT Donald Trump votes.
In 2020, we took it to another level applying the exact same principle……to motivate Ds!

I’m sure you acknowledge the millions of people with TDS during his presidency. During those 4 years, especially during the Mueller Witch Hunt, Trump’s opponents devoted enormous time, money and energy getting people to hate him even more than the poor behavior that made everything worse.

NOT Donald Trump was the battle cry that united Ds like never before ahead of an election. As bad as Biden was (really bad with an UNfavorable rating greater than favorable but wasn’t quite as bad as Trumps) people saw him as the lesser of 2 evils in a huge way.

Many millions of Ds and others that often don’t vote came out in droves in 2020 to vote NOT Donald Trump.
In other words, this is what happened.

Joe Biden + NOT Donald Trump was much greater than Donald Trump + NOT Joe Biden, where the NOT’s generated tens of millions of votes in 2020 and a record smashing amount,

Believe what you want but that’s exactly what happened, not a theory.

Here’s more on that specific dynamic, which I discussed several times on my forum.:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: President Biden says he will run again in 2024, NBC reports

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/94482/

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Mike Maguire
August 28, 2023 7:21 am

Many millions of Ds and others that often don’t vote came out in droves in 2020 to vote NOT Donald Trump.”

That’s generally my thinking as well. That isn’t to say there weren’t shenanigans, there almost certainly were, there always are. The question is whether they changed the outcome.

karlomonte
Reply to  Mike Maguire
August 28, 2023 7:45 am

Obama is a marxist who tried to ruin America.

Treasonous rat.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  karlomonte
August 29, 2023 4:14 am

Barack didn’t have much love for America. His wife said that the first time she had ever been proud of America was when they elected her husband as president. So Mitchell didn’t have much love for America, either.

Barack said he wanted to make fundamental changes to America. I think that’s what we are seeing now with the weaponization of the Executive Branch against the People, which started under Obama, and continues under his puppets.

karlomonte
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 29, 2023 7:36 am

All very true.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Mike Maguire
August 28, 2023 1:32 pm

Mike,

1) I’m NOT convinced of anything. I think it’s conceivable that your TDS scenario does in fact explain the higher turnout.

2) High turnout certainly doesn’t preclude fraud, including fraud sufficient to change the result. I am only highly suspicious (close to convinced) that there was a large opportunity for undetectable fraud, given unmonitored/poorly monitored dropboxes. Maybe it made a difference or maybe not.

3) You have not justified your claim that it was “ …the most PROVEN secure presidential election in history”. What does “PROVEN secure” even mean? How do you prove that something did NOT happen?

The real question I would like to ask is whether you would agree that it is in every honest citizen’s interest to see all opportunities for undetectable fraud to be eliminated?

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Mike Maguire
August 29, 2023 4:03 am

“For 2 months, Trump tried to overturn the most PROVEN secure presidential election in history, including the use of diabolical, illegal schemes.

A clear violation of the Constitution and treasonous by all objective standards. Regardless of whether they can get a conviction, anybody that denies the blatantly clear evidence is just denying it because of what they “want to believe”.”

I would say you are wrong on this, Mike.

First of all, I don’t know where you get the “most PROVEN secure presidential election in history”.

It looks like the most insecure election in history to me.

It is not a violation of the U.S. Constitution to protest an election. There is a time-honored tradition of protesting election results in American history.

As far as I can see, Trump did nothing illegal regarding the vote. He was given legal advice on everything he did.

Questioning the validity of State electors is not a violation of the U.S. Constitution. They have been questioned in the past. The recent past. But none of the Democrats who contested recent elections are being charged with crimes.

This will all work itself out in court. I’m sure we will have a lot to argue about. Unfortunately, this is all taking place in the middle of a presidential election campaign. Just like Biden and the radical Democrats planned it.

Election Interference. Democracy Interference.

karlomonte
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 29, 2023 7:38 am

As far as I can see, Trump did nothing illegal regarding the vote. He was given legal advice on everything he did.

And now lawyers who advised him have been charged with felonies as part of this insanely absurd “RICO” case.

This is America?

Show trials?

Jim Masterson
Reply to  Mike Maguire
August 29, 2023 9:42 pm

To quote Dan Bongino: if the last election was: “the most PROVEN secure presidential election in history,” what was the second most proven election? Your statement is just nonsense. No one knows which election is the most secure. You’re quoting Democrat talking points.

wilpost
Reply to  Walter R. Hogle
August 27, 2023 5:33 am

Ukraine soldiers and many thousands of mercenaries are using almost 100% NATO weapons and ammunition to fight Russia

Ukraine&Co is losing about 800, sometimes 1000, people per day.
How long can that go on?

Russia has vastly more people available for fighting, and is producing 24/7 to keep them armed, fueled and fed.

Stay tuned during the next few months

Tom Abbott
Reply to  wilpost
August 27, 2023 6:23 am

The Ukrainians have just made breakthroughs in Putin’s defense lines.

Stay tuned.

And btw, General Jack Keane, a military man I have great respect for, was highly critical of the Pentagon over their criticism of the Ukrainian tactics.

As General Keane pointed out, none of the generals in the Pentagon has ever fought a battle similar to the one the Ukrainians are fighting, so they don’t know what they are talking about when they criticize the Ukrainians.

And now these Ukrainians that these geniuses in the Pentagon have been criticizing are making breakthroughs, even without the necessary equipment they need for these operations.

American generals wouldn’t think of carrying out an operation like that the Ukrainians face without all the equipment necessary, but the Ukrainians are doing it without all the bells and whistles. So American generals should shut up and watch the show and they might learn something.

The Pentagon is going to need a thorough cleaning when Trump gets back in office. I think Trump should hire General Jack Keane for that reform job.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 27, 2023 9:44 am

‘So American generals should shut up and watch the show and they might learn something.’

Tom,

Why the desire to throw American troops into a meat grinder, particularly one that has all the hallmarks of a cover up for Biden family corruption?

gcor
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
August 27, 2023 10:43 am

Nobody is calling for American troops to be thrown into a “meat grinder”.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  gcor
August 27, 2023 10:56 am

Not yet, at least. But back to the point -exactly what lesson(s) are our generals supposed to be learning from their Ukrainian counterparts?

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
August 28, 2023 5:31 am

Well, I think General Keane was talking about the defensive lines the Russians have established in Ukraine, the likes of which haven’t been seen since World War II, so these Pentagon generals who are carping at the Ukrainians, have no experience with this type of warfare, other than what they read in a book.

General Keane is calling the Pentagon generals “armchair quarterbacks”.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
August 28, 2023 5:24 am

What makes you think I desire to throw American troops into the war? I have a grandson that just joined the U.S. Marines. I prefer he help the people of Maui, as he is doing now, rather than have him go to Ukraine.

But I don’t have to worry about him going to Ukraine. The Ukrainians don’t need his help. All they need is the right equipment to fight this war.

The Ukrainians are willing to fight for their freedom, and they do a pretty damn good job of it, considering the handicaps they are dealing with, and we should be supporting them 100 percent.

Putin is on the defense, and that’s where we should keep him. Don’t give him a victory in Ukraine, or he will be looking for more, and then maybe my grandson might get involved. That doesn’t have to happen if we are smart.

Unfortunately, we have an Appeaser as a president, and we are not being smart about the Ukraine war. Biden is dragging his feet every step of the way, and prolonging the agony.

Biden’s surrender in Afghanistan probably inspired Putin to start his latest invasion of Ukraine.

All appeasers manage to do is encourage bloodthirsty dictators to go on killing sprees.

wilpost
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 28, 2023 8:54 am

Putin and China are using BRISC PLUS to turn the table, level the playing field

In a few years, it will have more of the world population, have more of the world GWP, because they are growing faster, produce more of the fossil fuels and other materials, and will mostly use their own SWIFT system, and mostly use their own currencies, instead of the dollar/euro

Tom Abbott
Reply to  wilpost
August 29, 2023 4:22 am

“Putin and China are using BRISC PLUS to turn the table, level the playing field”

I think that’s what they are trying to do. I don’t know that they will be successful at it.

I think a major impetus for some of these nations to join BRISC is because of the harrassment they are receiving from Western governments over fossil fuels. They are going where fossil fuels are accepted, and they know they need fossil fuels for a good future.

Western Climate Change Alarmists are driving a bunch of neutral nations into the Enemy’s camp, imo.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 28, 2023 9:38 am

Let’s just leave it at the point that we both agree that Biden is a mendacious and corrupt fool, who is doing exactly what his deep state handlers tell him to do.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
August 29, 2023 4:24 am

I’ll agree with that.

I see where about 5,400 emails under a fake name Biden used, have been uncovered. The contents of those ought to be interesting.

karlomonte
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 29, 2023 7:41 am

“Unearthed Email Reveals Hunter Biden Was Notified of Official Government Call Between Poroshenko and Joe Biden in Message Sent to “Robert L. Peters” – Proves Bidens Were Secretly Working Family Business Deals Together While Joe was VP”

But this is being reported by The Gateway Pundit, so according to Simon it must be false on this basis alone.

MarkW
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
August 28, 2023 3:36 pm

Saying that American generals should watch so that they can learn something, is not a call for American soldiers to start participating.

wilpost
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 28, 2023 9:36 am

The Ukrainian Army lost up to 4,855 servicemen last week, TASS reports, as its counter-offensive inches forward in Southern Ukraine.

Last week, the Ukrainian forces lost 1,490 fighters in the Donetsk area, 1,180 servicemen in the South Donetsk area, 820 in the Zaporozhye area (Robodyne), 665 in the Kupyansk area, 485 in the Krasny Liman area and 215 in the Kherson area, TASS reports, based on the figures of the Russian Defense Ministry.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  wilpost
August 29, 2023 4:26 am

“based on the figures of the Russian Defense Ministry.”

We have to take that with a grain of salt, don’t we?

Sunsettommy
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 28, 2023 1:11 pm

False as pointed out HERE

gcor
Reply to  wilpost
August 27, 2023 9:17 am

Okay comrade. How many rubles from the IRA are you given to post this? Or are you just another western useful idiot?

None of your claims are true anyway.

Those “mercenaries” are foreign volunteers. Provide evidence of being ACTUAL mercenaries.

Umm. Large amounts of the weapons and ammo Ukraine is using comes from a combination of its own arms industry, Soviet stockpiles, and large amounts of captured Russian equipment and ammunition. Regardless, so what is they have large amounts of NATO equipment and gear? It’s working well considering how devasting it has been towards the Russian military.

Ukraine is not losing 800 or 1000 men a day. I’ve seen plenty of reliable reports Russia often loses 1,000 or more men a day as casualties though. Especially among the Storm-Z units. Formations made up of mass blobs of prison convicts that are used as cannon fodder as Russia is running out of experienced military personnel and many of its best units have been decimated. They’re definitely not producing anything “24/7”. Their supply chains are in shambles due to rampant corruption and sanctions and many units are using older Soviet equipment such as T-55 tanks. Their cannibalizing their own economy while relying on China, Iran, North Korea and others to fill in the gaps.

“Stay tuned” Yawn. I’ve heard this before. “Just wait a few months! Ukraine will crack!” Weird how that never happens. You know Russia continues to lose ground right? Try getting out into the real world for once…

goracle
Reply to  Walter R. Hogle
August 27, 2023 5:54 am

Walter, an insurrection? LOL! He shot himself in the foot with his response to the covid plandemic and continued insistance that it was the “best response ever”… it torpedoed his presidency. Don’t get me wrong, if it’s him or dimensia Joe next year, the Trumpster has my vote.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  goracle
August 29, 2023 4:35 am

What was Trump’s response to the covid pandemic?

What I recall is Trump turned handling the pandemic over to the individual States, giving them the responsibility of imposing mask and vaccine mandates, or not. Trump focused on getting a vaccine developed and producing enough medical equipment to handle the problem.

My particular State did not impose any vaccine or mask mandates on anyone living here. Trump’s response was just what I wanted: Let the States decide. That’s one reason, among many, for why I voted for him.

Claiming his handling of the pandemic was his downfall is ridiculous. Everybody has their own pet idea about why Trump lost the election. My pet idea for that has nothing to do with policy or past performance.

goracle
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 29, 2023 5:55 am

Trump response? Installing Fauci as the grand pubah of the response, which led to masking, lockdowns, poison jabs…. but, with rrspect to elections, unprecedented mail-in voting and ballot harvesting that led to massive election “irregularities” in key states/counties that led to a stolen election. As for states doing what they wanted, they took the lead from the white house, Fauci, NIH, CDC, FDA and saidniver and over that they were simply implementing federal guidance, which Trump did have much control over but decided to let Fauci and company rule the roost. Ask members of the national guard, nurses, doctors, teachers, private employers, hollywood, etc that fired many employees for not taking the jab… all state jobs but following Trump’s 3-letter agency “guidance”. It was 100% on Trump’s watch we got this crap. He still thinks “warp speed” and the jabs are awesome. He still has no plan to prevent same shenanigans (mail in voting and bsllot harvesting) that happened in November 2020 so he will lose again (they’re setting it up again with new covid variant talk). His performance post March 2020 has been horrible and overshadows his very good performance pre-march 2020.

MarkW
Reply to  Walter R. Hogle
August 27, 2023 8:23 am

Telling his supports to make themselves heard, but do it peacefully, is insurrection?

niceguy12345
Reply to  Walter R. Hogle
August 27, 2023 9:15 pm

Americans are described in Europe as gun nuts, trigger happy… now Americans will be forever known as ultimately distracted, so much so, they insurrect without firing a shot (or bringing more than a handful of weapons).

cilo
Reply to  John the Econ
August 26, 2023 11:20 pm

…lot of reasons to reject Ramaswamy…

Yet you will vote for him? You philosopher, you!
It is true, people deserve the government they get.

rah
Reply to  cilo
August 26, 2023 11:44 pm

Anyone that did not just fall off the turnip truck knows that elections are most often about picking the least of the evils.

cilo
Reply to  rah
August 27, 2023 4:24 am

…and that’s why They get away with presenting you with kaka to choose from…

Rich Davis
Reply to  cilo
August 27, 2023 5:27 am

Nonsense cilo. It’s the nature of any first-past-the-post system.

Proportional representation is not really much different. Although you get to vote for the party platform that comes closest to your views on everything, you know that you’re still ending up with a coalition with parties that oppose your views and will not support everything you support. (‘kaka’)

F-p-t-p is just a system of forming the coalition before the election, pr is a system forming the coalition after the election. Show me a country where the outcome isn’t some degree of ‘kaka’.

Rich Davis
Reply to  rah
August 27, 2023 5:05 am

Exactly right rah! The only time in my lifetime that I didn’t feel that way was 1984.

Hoyt Clagwell
Reply to  rah
August 27, 2023 8:26 am

I’m starting to think that people just want to be lied to so, they vote for the candidate that tells them what they want to hear, knowing it is all lies anyway. May the best illusionist win.

rah
Reply to  Hoyt Clagwell
August 27, 2023 10:17 am

Low information voters. Not enough people actually take the time and make the effort to learn the issues and the candidates.

Lots of millennials are wearing a ring in their nose these days. When I see them I think of Bulls and swine where the ring is there for control. Bulls have them because it is method of control and protection of their handlers and in swine to prevent them from rooting up the ground.

I await the day when stock brokers, bankers, financial advisors, etc have clown hair, tats all over, and rings in their noses and/or studs all over the place.

Joe Crawford
Reply to  rah
August 27, 2023 1:46 pm

It’s not just millennials. It’s anyone, millennials, gen Z’ers, even retirees, most anyone that gets their news from personal media sites or the MSM (MSN, CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC… but those appear to be few and far between). Heck, my sister has been in assisted living for the last 5 or 6 years. She and her roommate have both been totally brain washed… by Apple News in their case.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Joe Crawford
August 28, 2023 5:44 am

The lying leftwing Media is the most dangerous thing in the world when it comes to our personal freedoms and our ability to govern ourselves.

We can’t govern ourselves properly if all we get are lies and distortions from the Media.

Electing authoritarians is not governing ourselves properly. It’s just the opposite of that.

Democrats are authoritarians. They want to run your life for you, but they won’t take your personal preferences into consideration. They will run your life they way *they* want to run it. Don’t vote for these madmen!

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 28, 2023 7:32 am

Life of Linda. Cradle to Grave government “assistance”.

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  rah
August 28, 2023 7:29 am

All those things are also narcissism on display.

MarkW
Reply to  cilo
August 27, 2023 8:41 am

In your opinion, one should only vote for candidates that are perfect?

cilo
Reply to  MarkW
August 27, 2023 12:38 pm

“Don’t vote, it only encourages the bastards.”
‘sfar’s I can see, all political parties are mafia gangs, and the character of the candidate has absolutely zero relevance; once the thing is in office, it is legally bound to execute Party Policy, i.e. mafia gangsterism.
I’ll vote for any candidate that signs the following agreement:
https://greenpets.co.za/index.php/en/2-greenpets-natural-happiness/316-social-contract

MarkW
Reply to  cilo
August 28, 2023 3:43 pm

We have two candidates. One bad, one a total disaster. Your solution is that since neither is perfect it doesn’t matter which one wins.

cilo
Reply to  MarkW
August 28, 2023 11:19 pm

Your solution is that since neither is perfect it doesn’t matter which one wins.

No sir! The reality is that it matters not who wins, the solution I offered in the hyperlink you obviously did not see? (I suppress my feelings of disappointment in your attention span) 😉
I reiterate, Mark: All political parties are mafia gangs, and the character of the candidate has no bearing, as soon as it is in office, it is legally bound to execute Party police, in other words, Mafia gangster protocol.
But here’s a thought: Just like the dems are going to pretend Obiden is their candidate until the last moment, when they will substitute Big Mike, so I pray Trump will keep all the fools on a line, until it is too late, and then he stands independently.
Now THAT would be fun!

cwright
Reply to  John the Econ
August 27, 2023 2:32 am

If Trump had been in the debate he would have spoken the same truth.
Trump has made many statements about climate change, and they do put him in the mainstream of sceptical opinion. He has not denied the reality of climate change but he has said it is natural, or mostly natural. Most people here would agree with that.

Ramaswamy has said he would not contemplate running with Trump, but all candidates would say that for obvious reasons while still in the running. If – as seems almost certain – Trump wins the nomination then I think it very likely that Ramaswamy would be his running mate. Trump and Ramaswamy at the White House could be a powerful force, and mostly a force for good.

If I was an American I would certainly vote for Trump, who, despite some flaws, is several million times better than Biden. My one big concern is support for Ukraine. I hope that, as president, Trump will continue military support for Ukraine (the majority of Republicans do support Ukraine).

I look forward to seeing two powerful climate sceptics in the White House!
Chris

cilo
Reply to  cwright
August 27, 2023 4:26 am

I do not think Trump is as naive as last time. By now he knows about Vivek’s rather misanthrope social paradigms.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  cwright
August 27, 2023 4:43 am

“If – as seems almost certain – Trump wins the nomination then I think it very likely that Ramaswamy would be his running mate. Trump and Ramaswamy at the White House could be a powerful force, and mostly a force for good.”

I think Vivek’s foreign policy stances are going to prevent him from being vice president, and I’m not too sure how well two Alpha males like Trump and Vivek would get along. I don’t think Vivek would like playing second fiddle.

The best combination for Republican president and vice president is Trump and Senator Tim Scott, imo. Scott is a very smart, conservative guy, with a story every American should hear, and he will pull in enough black votes to beat the Democrats.

It only takes a few percent of black votes to switch to Trump for him to win, and he is already reportedly picking up black and hispanic voters, so if Tim Scott is his running mate, only good things can happen.

And Trump and Scott get along very well. They have worked successfully together in the past with Scott heading up an effort to bring jobs to poor communities around the country.

After four years, Tim Scott will make a very good President of the United States in 2028

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 27, 2023 4:56 am

I think Scott will get the Clarence Thomas treatment from left wingers. He will be labeled an uncle tom, a traitor to his race and all other insults you can imagine. The cows on the View will echo that and liberal sheep will believe it all.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Tom in Florida
August 27, 2023 5:44 am

That may be true, Tom, but as the other Tom said, it only takes a few percent.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Tom in Florida
August 27, 2023 6:43 am

They already are giving Scott the “treatment”. That’s what every black conservative gets from the radical Left. They think they own black people and go after any black person who doesn’t go along with them.

Hoyt Clagwell
Reply to  Tom in Florida
August 27, 2023 8:29 am

Or like Larry Elder who ran for California Governor, he will get labeled, “the black face of white supremacy.” I couldn’t believe it when the left went that racist and their base ate it up.

Tony_G
Reply to  Hoyt Clagwell
August 27, 2023 1:25 pm

I found it not only believable but quite in character, Hoyt

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Tony_G
August 28, 2023 5:53 am

Me, too. Sadly.

MarkW
Reply to  Hoyt Clagwell
August 28, 2023 3:45 pm

Of course their base ate it up. Their base is also that racist.

MarkW
Reply to  Tom in Florida
August 27, 2023 8:45 am

The left wingers attack vigorously anyone who opposes them.
If we want a candidate that the leftists will not attack, we will be forced to choose a leftist.

Simon
Reply to  MarkW
August 27, 2023 7:33 pm

The left wingers attack vigorously anyone who opposes them.
If we want a candidate that the leftists will not attack, we will be forced to choose a leftist.”
You are such a snowflake. It’s called politics Mark. You don’t say nice things about your opposition. It’s nothing personal…. until it does get personal, and Trumps attacks on Chris Christies weight are a good example of that.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Simon
August 28, 2023 5:55 am

I heard Trump telling an audience member at one of his rallies recently to “stop calling Christie a fat pig! Trump said it a couple of times.

So see, Trump was trying to be nice. 🙂

Simon
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 29, 2023 12:34 pm

Well if that is true that is great.

karlomonte
Reply to  Simon
August 28, 2023 7:46 am

More hypocrisy from MaoBoi.

MarkW
Reply to  Simon
August 28, 2023 3:51 pm

I know that you aren’t bright Simon, but in your eagerness to insult me you forgot to actually understand what I said.

Then again, you ability to understand anything never has been impressive.

If you will read my post again, you will see that I am arguing against the position that we should seek a candidate that the left will not attack.

It’s nonsense like this post that demonstrates why nobody here is impressed by you.

Sunsettommy
Reply to  Tom in Florida
August 28, 2023 1:14 pm

Which democrats do loudly all the time while republicans do little of it the other way.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 27, 2023 5:41 am

One quibble that Vikek doesn’t strike me as particularly alpha. But Trump/Scott does seem like a better option than Trump/Ramaswamy.

I’m not a Nikki Haley fanboi but she is factually correct that Trump has the highest negatives among presidential candidates. Adding Vivek to that isn’t going to improve the situation. Tim Scott just might.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Rich Davis
August 27, 2023 6:52 am

Effective propaganda can drive up one’s negatives. It’s not Trump’s fault.

It might be effective in neutralizing Trump. Only time will tell if all the lies and distortions were enough to derail him.

I don’t know about anyone else, but the more they attack Trump, the more determined I am to vote for him, if given the chance.

I think he has been wronged for political purposes, and if his persecutors are successful, we may have lost the Republic, so I’ll vote for Trump because I like his policies and because I want to send a message to the radical Democrats that what they have done and are doing will not in the end succeed and is not acceptable in this country.

Electing Tump again will be the greatest repudication of the radical Left in history. And it needs to happen if we value our personal freedoms because they are definitely on the line. If the radical Democrats can do this to Trump successfully, then they can do it to any one of us, if we get out of line.

Your personal freedoms do not lie with the radical Democrats. Their intention is to take them away from you.

Don’t give them another opportunity. Vote them out of office at the next election.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 27, 2023 7:29 am

“It’s not Trump’s fault”. Yes and no. Trump absolutely has had slander and calumny heaped upon him like no other (even Nixon). But Trump seems to revel in cranking them up.

I love red meat, too. It would be awesome fun if 51% agreed with us. The problem is, that 30% agree with us, 45% will never agree with us, and so we need to persuade the independents at better than a 4:1 ratio in order to eke out 50% plus one vote. That’s too tall of an order when most of those 25% pay little attention and are especially susceptible to emotional appeals and propaganda.

Hoyt Clagwell
Reply to  Rich Davis
August 27, 2023 8:32 am

That’s the math that proves the American experiment in self governance has failed. I love this country with all my heart but, the people, not so much.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Hoyt Clagwell
August 28, 2023 6:04 am

The people are inundated with radical leftwing propaganda. Those that are paying attention.

Are there enough critical thinkers in America to govern ourselves properly? We will know soon.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Rich Davis
August 28, 2023 6:00 am

I think we ought to allow things to work themselves out and then we will get a better reading on who will vote for who.

Let’s see what the polls say after Trump becomes the nominee.

goracle
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 27, 2023 6:13 am

WTH is wrong with conservatives? You have an actual candidate that has walked the walk – Desantis. He won in a landslide victory (@20 points) not too long ago in a state that’s basicly 50/50, so he convinced a bunch of democrats, or at least left of center, to vote for him. You all want a show, not substance.

gcor
Reply to  goracle
August 27, 2023 11:06 am

Because frauds like Trump and Vivek have them under a spell of delusion. A cult, so to speak.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  gcor
August 28, 2023 6:07 am

Well, 75 million voters voted for Trump.

The good economy under Trump was not a delusion.

Just think how different the economy is today under the command of an idiot.

rah
Reply to  goracle
August 27, 2023 11:24 am

We see the strings and once you see them you can’t unsee them.

gcor
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 27, 2023 11:00 am

No more Trump.

karlomonte
Reply to  gcor
August 27, 2023 1:16 pm

A new TDS clown shows up out of nowhere. So predictable.

gcor
Reply to  karlomonte
August 27, 2023 2:59 pm

At least I’m not a delusional Trump cultist like you.

karlomonte
Reply to  gcor
August 27, 2023 4:11 pm

WordPress so needs a /ignore feature.

Tom Halla
Reply to  gcor
August 27, 2023 9:01 pm

No, you are just a KoolAid drinking Democrat.

Sunsettommy
Reply to  gcor
August 28, 2023 1:19 pm

I am a Free-Thinking INDEPENDENT not beholden to either party’s bullshit they have been promoting for many years now.

I plan to vote for a Trump a true outsider.

You will vote for Biden even if he collapsed and be in bed for the next year because you are a leftist moron.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  karlomonte
August 28, 2023 6:09 am

Maybe it’s Hillary.

karlomonte
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 28, 2023 7:47 am

ewwwww!

Sunsettommy
Reply to  gcor
August 28, 2023 1:16 pm

Another TDS who can’t drop their infatuation of Trump.

MarkW
Reply to  Sunsettommy
August 28, 2023 3:57 pm

The best, out of many reasons, to vote for Trump is to watch the heads of all the Trump haters explode on election night.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  MarkW
August 29, 2023 4:53 am

That will be a sight to see!

Hillary’s defeat was such a pleasure! I recall the guy down on his knees, with his hands stretched to the skies, screaming “Why!?” at the sky, after Hillary lost. He was so distraught. It was pitiful.

Let’s hope to see a whole lot more of that in the near future.

cwright
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 28, 2023 4:00 am

Tom,
I think you’re right. Knowing Trump’s nature, the ability to get on well with Trump would be crucial. Tim Scott sounds good, but I hope he is at least a potential climate sceptic.
Also, shortly after posting I saw an interview with Ramaswamy. I thought his comments about Ukraine were terrible, so I have lost nearly all respect for him. As opinion polls show that most Republicans support Ukraine, this could be a problem for him.
Chris

Tom Abbott
Reply to  cwright
August 29, 2023 5:03 am

I’m not sure where Tim Scott stands on human-caused climate change. The debate the other night did not get to him answering anything about climate change.

Yes, most Republicans and most Americans support helping Ukraine. They know who the good guys and who the bad guys are in this struggle.

Vivek thinks a Russia/China alliance poses the greatest danger to the U.S. and Europe, and he thinks he can do a deal with Russia that will split the two up.

I think this is totally unrealistic. Russia and China have been coordinating with each other since after World War II, and that’s not going to stop.

But, as long as the United States is strong enough militarily to take on both of them.

The United States should build up its conventional forces to the point that Russia and China won’t think about taking the United States on.

I hear the United States is making big strides in laser weapons lately.

Of course, we need to be sure we don’t let the Chicoms steal the technology.

If it wasn’t for theft, they wouldn’t have anything. How robust is a country that has to steal others technology?

goracle
Reply to  cwright
August 27, 2023 6:06 am

cwright, maybe this time Trump will actually drain the swamp instead of surrounding himself with it? If Trump actually wins, expect nothing less than scorched-earth all-out revenge as his agenda.

starzmom
Reply to  goracle
August 27, 2023 6:45 am

I agree. He is much smarter politically this time around.

Rich Davis
Reply to  goracle
August 27, 2023 8:09 am

How do you reform the civil service or abolish the four or five (or ten?) cabinet-level departments that ought to be abolished?

Unless we hold the House and get 60 votes in the Senate, that can never happen. (More like 63. We could not count on Romney, Murkowski, or Collins in a cloture vote). How do you expect to pick up 13 seats in the Senate?

Trump might fire some people in some departments if they demonstrably acted inappropriately but he’s not going to be able to root out the thousands upon thousands of swamp critters who undermine his policies through delay and incompetence.

If we avoid a Harris or Newsom administration, the best we can hope for is scaling back on the climate crisis spending and regulation, fought tooth and nail in the courts. (If Dementia Joe makes it to the election, then Cackles will take over by March. If Brandon drops out, Newsom would likely be the nominee).

goracle
Reply to  Rich Davis
August 27, 2023 8:30 am

Rich davis, that’s my point. He had his chance to drain the swamp and didn’t. It won’t be any different this time… in fact, it will be worse since he would be term limited and only care about going after those that tried to jail him, which they should go to jail for (because what he’s going through is total BS) but that’s all we’d get from him this time around – payback.

As for holding the house and/or senate, it’s the same lie over and over – the rubes vote in the same rhinos over and over and then expect a different result. Most conservatives only want memes that they can text and post to their facebook accounts to show their friends “look how stupid those democrats are”. That’s all the conservative movement has become – memes and grandstanding… a big circus show with very little substance. Most conservatives are anything but.. they’re merely democrat-lite as the boat keeps listing towards the left. Pathetic.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  goracle
August 28, 2023 6:16 am

“Rich davis, that’s my point. He had his chance to drain the swamp and didn’t.”

Trump was fought every step of the way by the radical Democrats for his entire four years as president. Everything he did was challenged by every available means the Democrats could come up with. Absolutely no cooperation. And this is Trump’s fault? Only if you think it is a fault to be a Republican.

Trump said he was unfamiliar with the Washington DC scene, and appointed people based on recommendations. Like Chris Christie recommending he appoint Christopher Wray as FBI Director.

Trump had to depend on other’s recommendations for the people he hired. The good thing about Trump is he recognized very quickly whether a person he hired was doing the job and if he was not, Trump fired them immediately.

Trump says now he knows who the good guys are and who the bad guys are in Washington DC.

I imagine if given the chance, Trump is going to go after the Bad Guys in Washington DC. It’s crucial to our nation’s survival.

goracle
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 28, 2023 8:12 pm

Abbott, trump may never have been preaident, but he spent much of his adult life dealing and hanging around with them. First rule about management is “everything is your fault”. He made the decision, not chris christie. If that was his only crappy appointment or one that stabbed him in the back, that’s a different story. But he consistently picked bad picks – this from a guy promoting himself as “the art of the deal” grant master. There was much put of his control so i won’t fault him for that and he did many good things prior to jan 2020 – i would vote for him again in a heartbeat if it’s him vs anyone from 98% of the complete dumpster fire that is the democrat party. However, we have better to choose from so I’d rather try new blood – eapecially one with a rexord like Desantis that has walked the walk in Florida and defies the odds there. I don’t need perfection, but I’d rather nit want to be forced to vote for a guy who enabled the covid insanity in the USA and thinks that continued boasting of “warp speed” is something to write home about. I he can’t open his eyes on that, i have little faith he’ll “drin the swamp” this time around. If he wins, he’s out for blood and revenge and no one should expect anything more from his 4 year term.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  goracle
August 29, 2023 5:14 am

“However, we have better to choose from so I’d rather try new blood”

I have to disagree. Trump has a proven, good record. If he gets in office, I know what he is going to do. He is going to do what he did before and get the United States back on track.

I like Desantis, but he is not a proven quantity on a national level, and he is a little unsure of himself about the Ukraine war.

He’s feeling around for a good Ukriane position, which means he doesn’t have a solid position in his mind now. He’s looking for the best political posture.

He’s a little gun-shy after listening to Laura Ingraham’s diatribes picturing the Ukraine war in the worst light possible. So Desantis is trying to figure out how to get the isolationists like Laura to love him, while not going against the majority opinion of most Americans, who support the Ukraine war.

I think several of the candidates would make good presidents, but none of them is the proven quantity that is Trump.

goracle
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 29, 2023 6:05 am

Abbott, u say “Desantis, but he is not a proven quantity on a nationa Go back to 2016. Replace Desantis with Trump. Sound familiar? The only difference is one had a very successful record as governor of a very large state going in that u could weigh and measure before deciding. Like i said, you all want a show, not substance. I love off-the-cuff Trump – that’s when he’s at his best but, like hillary, he needs to move on.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 29, 2023 4:10 am

Tom I agree with most of that. My only point is I guess, that Trump’s choices about when to be aggressive and when to be diplomatic (almost always vs almost never, respectively), are demonstrably not effective. That it’s unfair is irrelevant to that observation except that I’ll grant you that maybe it was hopeless, so why not go down swinging?

MarkW
Reply to  goracle
August 28, 2023 4:00 pm

You can’t drain the swamp unless you control the House and have a filibuster proof margin in the Senate. Trump never had that, so the best he could do was whittle away at the edges.

MarkW
Reply to  MarkW
August 28, 2023 4:02 pm

Most swamp dwellers are civil service and can’t be fired, unless the department they are working for is gotten rid off. It takes congressional action to get rid departments.

goracle
Reply to  MarkW
August 28, 2023 8:20 pm

Teump had house and senate first 2 yrs of his presidency… i understand that rhinos euled the roost and trump was limited in what he could do. However, his appointments that backfired are all on him, as was his covid response (that he still claims was the best response ever – he’s completely lost it regarding covid).

Tony_G
Reply to  Rich Davis
August 27, 2023 1:28 pm

How do you reform the civil service or abolish the four or five (or ten?) cabinet-level departments that ought to be abolished?

You mention congress, but how many were created by acts of congress and how many by executive order? Any created by EO can be eliminated by EO.
(Honest, question, I haven’t looked into it)

Rich Davis
Reply to  Tony_G
August 27, 2023 3:54 pm

All cabinet-level departments are established by statute as far as I’m aware.

Civil service employees are shielded against being replaced by an incoming administration except in cases of termination for cause which doesn’t even always include being convicted of crimes, let alone incompetence.

Trump could not effectively shut down a department by laying off most of its staff because of civil service statutes and also because the authorization bills (usually a monster omnibus spending bill) has the force of law. The refusal to spend the money could subject Trump to charges of failing to faithfully execute the laws of the United States.

Since legislation would be required to repeal the statutes that established the various departments, that means that the Senate must approve the bill. However, Senate rules require a supermajority vote to cut off debate. (Called a motion for cloture or the filibuster rule). 60 senators must concur. Otherwise the bill cannot be brought to the floor for a vote. It’s therefore possible to block any new legislation with just 41% of the senators opposed.

So without 60 Republican senators, or Democrat support, no bill can pass the Senate. (Unless the majority changes Senate rules, which is not impossible).

Republicans currently hold 50 seats in the Senate. There are 33 seats up for election in 2024, with 10 currently held by Republicans. So it isn’t mathematically impossible that Republicans could take 20/33 where they currently hold 10/33, but it would be very unlikely.

The most aggressive path to eliminating cabinet-level departments would be to change Senate rules to eliminate the filibuster, then pass civil service reform laws and eliminate certain departments.

That could be done in theory even if the Republicans still had only 50 senators and the current 222 representatives. The Republican Vice President would break any tie in the Senate.

Reality is that most senators oppose eliminating the fillibuster. There’s broad bipartisan agreement on that. Also there are many RINO (Republican In Name Only) senators such as Romney, Murkowski, Collins, who would oppose eliminating any departments as well as opposing the elimination of the filibuster.

So it’s politically impossible to achieve the draining of The Swamp without a tsunami class wave election providing say a 63-37 split in the Senate. And that’s just not realistically in the cards.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Rich Davis
August 27, 2023 10:25 pm
Duane
Reply to  John the Econ
August 27, 2023 6:36 am

Ron DeSantis said exactly what needed to be said and no more or less. He said it is foolish to clamp down on American emissions and energy production that only aids the Chinese who make the solar cells and batteries that the Dems’ energy policies demand. It does nothing to solve whatever problem one may believe, only aids the bad guys.

Republicans win with that argument. Ramaswamy’s demogoguery about a “hoax” only turns voters off. The point is, you can’t set policy when you lose elections. It is far more important to be able to persuade voters to let you run the show than it is to fire up the base voters of a minority party (both “major” parties are minority parties, less than 30% of the electorate each). You win when you persuade the persuadable independent and swing voters.

goracle
Reply to  Duane
August 27, 2023 8:40 am

Duane… persuade the persuadable independents… that’s exactly what Desantis did in Florida last year… we have the winnning formula right in front of us and thw majority of so-called conservatives still putting their hopesbon Trump, who believes the 2020 election was stolen (which it was) but has absolutely ZERO plan to makenthe election less rigged this time… they’re setting it up again with this new BS covid variant and masks and lockups, which will enable insane ammounts if mail-in balloting again, which was a prime source of most election rigging in 2020 (which we’ll never find out about because most of that evidence is now destroyed)… election rigging happens on both sides – both repubs and dems – because they’re actually 2bsides of the same coin that pretend to hate eachother and, in actuality, both hate you.

Duane
Reply to  John the Econ
August 27, 2023 6:42 am

Ramaswamy is not a real candidate for President, as he is entirely unelectable. He is Trump’s stalking horse, running as Trump’s surrogate to suck primary votes away from Ron DeSantis who is Trump’s biggest competitor. If he is running for anything, it is Trump’s VP nominee. The pair of them will go down to defeat, and then where are we and the Republicans and the conservatives and moderates of America? The point is to win, only the winners get to make policy. And if we do win, then it is incumbent that the winner actually do something to make policy, unlike Trump who mostly played golf, protected Putin, and insulted his detractors.

Where is that wall? How much did Mexico pay for it?

Firing up the base wins nothing.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Duane
August 28, 2023 9:39 am

“unlike Trump who mostly played golf, protected Putin, and insulted his detractors.”

Ridiculous.

Ian_e
Reply to  John the Econ
August 27, 2023 7:08 am

Seriously?? On the basis of one soundbite from a novice politician? What, you will actually trust the words of any politician with no track record and vote accordingly. Blimey, I thought naivety was the province of the democraps.

gcor
Reply to  John the Econ
August 27, 2023 11:03 am

Vivek is a fraud. He just wants your money while being a dark horse for Trump.

karlomonte
Reply to  gcor
August 27, 2023 1:18 pm

And you know this, how?

gcor
Reply to  karlomonte
August 27, 2023 3:00 pm

Look it up. Pump and dump. Deceiving investors about a supposed treatment for Alzheimer’s. He’s not serious.

karlomonte
Reply to  gcor
August 27, 2023 4:13 pm

Hypocrite, this after you demanded I give citations.

Just another run-of-mill marxist clown in new socks.

Brian.
Reply to  John the Econ
August 27, 2023 8:50 pm

Yes, I agree!
Climate stupidity is a number one priority for me. Western efforts to deal with the ‘climate crisis’ are ruinous in a multitude of critical ways. These efforts totally undermine our ability to deal with literally every other genuinely serious issue. They effectively cripple Western civilisation.
We are presently staring down the very real possibility of a full-scale war with China. Without cheap, reliable power the West can’t even survive, let alone defend itself.

Tom Halla
August 26, 2023 6:26 pm

CAGW is like a preaching religion. It may not have a God, but it does have devils, fossil fuels and capitalism. So Exxon is equivalent to The Church of Satan.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Tom Halla
August 27, 2023 5:59 am

I’m thinking of changing my name to Tom. All the best comments come from Toms.

starzmom
Reply to  Rich Davis
August 27, 2023 6:44 am

Can I change my name to starztom?

Rich Davis
Reply to  starzmom
August 27, 2023 7:08 am

Go for it

MarkW
Reply to  starzmom
August 27, 2023 8:57 am

If you want to self identify as tom, it is your right.

Rich Davis
Reply to  MarkW
August 27, 2023 10:21 am

You’ve come a long way Mark. But I hope you now understand that if THEY transition to starztom then they ARE a Tom. You don’t need testicles to BE a Tom. It’s not just a matter of “self identifying”, ok? 😜

MarkW
Reply to  Rich Davis
August 28, 2023 4:16 pm

I’ve never been against people self-identifying as anything they want.
I just reserve the right to ridicule the more ridiculous of these claims.

Rich Davis
Reply to  MarkW
August 29, 2023 4:18 am

I’m in favor of reality and not enabling psychological disorders.

starzmom
Reply to  MarkW
August 27, 2023 11:56 am

On second thought, no. Tigger the tom was Starz’s best friend, and now they are both gone, so I will content myself with being mom. (Starz was a horse, and Tigger was a cat. Best friends anyway.)

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Rich Davis
August 27, 2023 9:16 am

Maybe we are al the same Tom using different handles.

MarkW
Reply to  Tom in Florida
August 28, 2023 4:15 pm

sneaky

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Tom Halla
August 27, 2023 11:09 am

CAGW is one of the Left’s weapons. Their god is the absolute power of the State.

Tom Halla
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
August 27, 2023 11:16 am

Not all leftists are Greens. A significant number regard the Greens as useful idiots. The CCP seems to regard Greens as just baizuo.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Tom Halla
August 27, 2023 1:25 pm

True. But so-called Greens in the Western ‘democracies’ have a strong tendency to vote for Leftists governments, who they perceive will compel activity that ‘favors’ the environment. Ironically, actual Leftist governments that rule without opposition could not care less about environmental degradation – if the oil pipeline with a 500 TBD quota leaks at a rate of 500 BD, they just stuff in another 500 BD to make up the shortfall.

Edward Katz
August 26, 2023 6:31 pm

I think that the majority of Developed World citizens believe in climate change to some extent but also feel that it’s mainly from natural causes—as in the past—with some of it caused by fossil fuel consumption. The problem is that science can’t put a number on the fossil fuel causes, so it goes to the extreme of claiming that is entirely due to human activity and as a result loses much of its credibility. So as long as governments and environmental groups use this extreme to promote alarmism and the demand that we abandon coal, oil and natural gas, they will continue to lack support, particularly when all the numbers prove that renewables can’t make up any shortfalls from the abandonment of fossil fuels. Ironically the Developing World is fully aware of this, while the leading economies can’t face this reality.

Martin Brumby
Reply to  Edward Katz
August 26, 2023 7:26 pm

They aren’t all that bothered about “support”.

They want power.

Thanks to the Climate scam, the Covid scam and the Globalist scam, everything is looking pretty good for them at present.

And very bad for everyone who realises what’s going on.

Eventually, of course, the truth will out. But not much of what we hold most dear will survive.

Sunsettommy
August 26, 2023 6:37 pm

I would call it a Climate Crisis SCAM since that is how the governments and the few rotten scientists treat it with their continual politically based socialistic proposals to fix a non-existing crisis via the propaganda channels and the growing threats against open debate on those who have a different position on the topic.

It is a SCAM!

John Oliver
Reply to  Sunsettommy
August 26, 2023 9:15 pm

Your right Sunset Tommy. The only reason they haven’t come at us harder is that they are to busy making sure no one can discuss certain topics in medicine and certain treatments. ( All that censorship is coming back with a vengeance, because these are nasty vengeful people). They will becoming after climate skeptics next with the heavy hand.

Ron Clutz
Reply to  Sunsettommy
August 27, 2023 4:44 am

That is the focus Manheimer took in his takedown of the climate “emergency” ploy that Biden is toying with.

https://rclutz.com/2023/01/12/manheimer-steamrolls-net-zero-claims/

Joe Gordon
August 26, 2023 7:06 pm

Politicians will never voluntarily give up a path for claiming they’re saving the world from something. It’s usually imaginary. I’m sure every single one of these clowns knows perfectly well that CO2 has little or nothing to do with extreme weather events. But they are fundamentally opportunists.

This is why they’re happy to waste our money any way they can. If we all end up broke and dependent, they’re even more important.

scadsobees
August 26, 2023 7:07 pm

Did Nicki say she’d try to stop the developing countries from making more co2, or was she trying to point out that for everything we do to emit less, the developing nations are emitting that much more, so it’s pointless? Sometimes the debate format causes things to be said or heard wrong…

Martin Brumby
Reply to  scadsobees
August 26, 2023 7:36 pm

Nicki is only an irritating monkey’s sidekick.

The real organ-grinders don’t bother so much about this kind of detail. But remembering what the likes of Maurice Strong himself (a higher level monkey) was saying, when he helped setting this scam going (e.g. Kyoto, 31 years ago), is essential.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  scadsobees
August 27, 2023 5:21 am

Here’s what Nikki Haley said about climate change at the debate:

https://rollcall.com/2023/08/24/transcript-gop-presidential-hopefuls-debate-in-milwaukee/

“BAIER: Hold on, hold on.

Governor Haley, would you like to respond? Are you bought and paid for?

HALEY: So, Bret, what I would like to say is the fact that I think this is exactly why Margaret Thatcher said, if you want something said, ask a man. If you want something done, ask a woman.

(CHEERS)

HALEY: First of all, we do care about clean air, clean water. We want to see that taken care of. But there’s a right way to do it.

And the right way is first of all, yes, is climate change real? Yes, it is. But if you go want to go and really change the environment, then we need to start telling China and India that they have to lower their emissions.

(APPLAUSE)

HALEY: That’s where our problem is. And these green subsidies that Biden has put in, all he’s done is help China because he doesn’t understand all these electric vehicles that he’s done, what that does that, half of the batteries for electric vehicles are made in China. And so, that’s not helping the environment. You’re putting money in China’s pocket. And Biden did that.

So, first of all, I think we need to acknowledge the truth, which is these subsidies are not working. We also need to take on the international world and say, okay, India and China, you’ve got to stop polluting. And that’s when we’ll start to deal with the planet — the planet (ph).”

So, apparently Nikki Haley thinks CO2 is a problem that needs fixing, but says China and India have to be part of that fixing.

Not good, Nikki. There’s no evidence CO2 needs to be fixed. You should talk to Dr. Happer about this subject.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 27, 2023 6:17 am

I agree that Nimrata is wrong. But I still don’t see clarity in her position.

It’s wrong to deflect by implying that you agree with the questioner that climate change is a problem by saying that “climate change is real”. Is there any one of us skeptics who don’t endorse the statement that “climate change is real”? But climate change is NOT a problem and there’s NO CLIMATE EMERGENCY!

She’s being a slick politician there. She can accurately say later that all she did was to concede that climate is changing. Yet if that were truly all she did then why would anyone have the impression that she thinks there’s a climate change problem?

Bill Parsons
Reply to  Rich Davis
August 27, 2023 11:33 pm

Climate change is real. She just forgot to add: it’s natural and changes all the time. I think any of these candidates could get away with giving a short geology lesson. Let them tell us about the Roman Warm Period, Vikings and Greenland. Remind people what they’ve probably heard about in school. There was a Medieval Warm Period when the great cathedrals were built; we’re recovering from a Little Ice Age, a time when the Thames River in England froze over; this is something which every climate graph shows. I still wonder at the previous administration’s inability to appoint a science adviser til two years in, and then to apppoint a weak defender of climate change. Much to the tune of Nim… Ms. Haley. The country NEEDED a science adviser… you know, to speak for real science. We got Faucci.

Climate change is an eighth or ninth priority to most people, so it’s no wonder if the politicians who represent them have not schooled themselves to deal with its advocates. Oddly, it’s become trillion dollar business. The pols better memorize a few cogent statements about global warming (being natural) to justify their (hopefully-massive) cutbacks in spending. Tell us how you’ll achieve this result through the Democratic process of advise and consent. They should be able to rattle off best scientific evidence, and then leave it to the experts to get into the weeds. I’d nominate Larry Lindzen, John Christy or Rand Paul for science adviser, assuming any of them would be crazy enough to take the job.

Bill Parsons
Reply to  Bill Parsons
August 30, 2023 1:08 pm

Larry Lindzen should be Richard Lindzen.

Bob
August 26, 2023 7:46 pm

It all comes down to communication. Communication to the masses, you know the average guy that I keep harping about. All of the complex and hard to understand studies we see here at WUWT are all very important but not the most important. The most important thing is to boil those studies down into easy to understand information that any high schooler can understand. Having all this fancy information is useless if the masses continue to be persuaded by bumper sticker slogans and two bit sound bites. If we spent our time educating the average guy Ms Haley would have been shouted down not Mr. Ramaswamy. It is as simple as that.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Bob
August 26, 2023 8:12 pm

‘Having all this fancy information is useless if the masses continue to be persuaded by bumper sticker slogans and two bit sound bites.’

The check-out area of a local health food store is plastered with bumper stickers that run the gamut of ‘progressive’ thought. I’ve always thought it unfair that the antidote to such poison requires much more of an investment in effort and thought to acquire.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Bob
August 27, 2023 4:59 am

As I have said here ad nauseam, it is all about sales 101.

starzmom
Reply to  Bob
August 27, 2023 6:23 am

I would be inclined to agree with you if I could persuade my very smart engineer son that climate change is not a crisis, but he insists on believing one of his engineering professors, who is a very ardent climate change proponent. The so-called smart ones need to have the world get demonstrably colder for a long time to believe that global warming as climate change is not the problem. When a normal hot summer in the south is trumpeted as the hottest record breaking summer ever, and everyone believes it, we have a long long way to go.

Bob
Reply to  starzmom
August 27, 2023 7:50 pm

I understand your predicament, it seems the most educated tend to be the hardest to convince they need to take a second look at what they believe. That is why we must counter the bumper sticker slogans and two bit sound bites that the average guy is blasted with 24/7. Once he understands how badly he has been deceived, lied to and cheated all this will come to an end because he doesn’t like being screwed.

Pat from Kerbob
August 26, 2023 8:27 pm

He said the “climate change agenda” is a hoax.
That is different from saying climate change is a hoax.
Maybe on purpose, to leave him an out?

The agenda is definitely not a hoax, it’s clear, front and center and it’s all about $$$.

Lots of people of all political persuasions want those $$$.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Pat from Kerbob
August 27, 2023 6:26 am

Yes, it’s a SCAM, not a prank.

Hoax is a really bad choice of words. I don’t know why Trump also says hoax. And he doesn’t nuance it by adding “agenda”, which is doubly bad, once again forcing us to “take him seriously not literally”.

Jim Masterson
August 26, 2023 8:35 pm

There are three types of systems in physics: linear, non-linear, and non-linear chaotic. There are no linear chaotic systems. If y1 is the response to a system with input x1; y2 is the response to the system with input x2; and a*y1 + b*y2 is the response to the system with input a*x1 + b*x2 (a and b are constants), then the system is linear–otherwise it is not.

A non-linear system’s response to an input may be to increase its output, decrease its output, or do something else. Non-linear systems do not act like linear systems. Weather and by extension climate are non-linear systems.

So the increase in CO2 may have nothing to do with the current rise in temperature–assuming it’s real. From the ice-cores, CO2 rise follows temperature rise by approximately 800 years. 800 years ago was the Medieval warming period. Maybe the current rise in CO2 is due to that warming event and has nothing to do with today’s events.

Steve Case
Reply to  Jim Masterson
August 26, 2023 9:27 pm

From Bob’s post above:

     “The most important thing is to boil those studies down into easy
     to understand information that any high schooler can understand.”

In other words, KISS Keep It Simple Stupid.

Coming up with simple explanations and slogans isn’t that difficult, it’s getting the word out. Dealing with the the blatant censorship is the problem.

1. More rain is not a problem.
2. Warmer weather is not a problem.
3. More arable land is not a problem.
4. Longer growing seasons is not a problem.
5. CO2 greening of the earth is not a problem.
6. There isn’t any Climate Crisis.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Steve Case
August 27, 2023 5:00 am

In other words, “warmer is better”. That is the tag line that even idiots can believe if it is presented the right way often enough.

starzmom
Reply to  Steve Case
August 27, 2023 6:30 am

None of those things are being passed off as the problem. The publicized problems are more excessive heat waves, record breaking temperatures, more hurricanes and more destructive hurricanes, more wildfires, more deadly wildfires, more flooding due to excessive heavy thunderstorms, etc., etc., etc. And all those more and deadly things are caused by more CO2, according to our betters.

Even though it is demonstrably true that none of those things are actually happening, the optics are not on our side. The aerial photos of Lahaina do more to convince people that we are in a climate crisis of our own making than any reasoned explanation of what actually is happening.

Mike McMillan
August 26, 2023 8:44 pm

Nitpick: “Here is Nigerian President Mohamed Bazoum …”
The country is Niger, not Nigeria, so it’s “Nigerien President …” French colony, you know. Sorta like Target/Tarzhaaaay, the place we used to shop sometimes before they went woke.

Nikki tried to cuddle up to Disney (or D’Isney – French ancestry, you know) after DeSantis hammered them. Didn’t work, lost points. Not in the running for VP under Navalny Mandela Trump (sorry, I get political prisoners mixed up occasionally).

I don’t know if any of the candidates other than Trump are going to go after the EPA the way it needs to be done, budget cut, offices moved out of DC to the Heartland (I’m still pushing for Lenexa, KS, convenient to both! Kansas City’s). Department of Energy should be moved to Omaha, cultural capital of eastern Nebraska.

Gonna be interesting, next couple of years.

Duker
Reply to  Mike McMillan
August 26, 2023 11:29 pm

How many state governors do you think have been convicted of federal corruption crimes, or as you might call them political prisoners….one even had his sentence commuted by Trump even if the felon was a democrat
Congressman and senators too many to consider. Political prisoners or just liars cheaters or crooks
Even in Europe heads of state have convicted of various crimes plus one NATO secretary general.

Trump beat the drump over locking Clinton up…….hehehehe , coming back to beat him big time for trying to over turn the certification by Congress after losing over 50 court cases on the vote count question

karlomonte
Reply to  Duker
August 27, 2023 8:46 am

Still an idiot.

gcor
Reply to  karlomonte
August 27, 2023 11:09 am

Nah, he’s right.

Simon
Reply to  karlomonte
August 28, 2023 4:05 pm

“Idiot” is a word you should be careful using, especially when you can’t deny any of his claims with evidence.

karlomonte
Reply to  Simon
August 28, 2023 11:36 pm

Quit pegging my irony meter, MaoBoi.

John Oliver
August 26, 2023 8:45 pm

Ramaswamy is a good guy. He has also had the courage to just come out and say :some sort of revolution is probably going to be necessary to “ fix” the corrupt system we have now. It is that bad. And knows it as I think many of us know it too ,but just arn’t quite ready to put a target on our backs.

John Hultquist
Reply to  John Oliver
August 26, 2023 9:46 pm

He wants to take all your money when you die and redistribute it.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  John Oliver
August 27, 2023 4:41 am

Ramaswamy’s rags to riches story is his parents story not his. They came to this Country poor but well educated and went on to be successful and provide him with a silver spoon. Great on them. But he himself has never worked as an everyday worker. He was a hedge fund manager and started a company in bed with big pharma. His touting of a drug that had failed three trials and pushing that on investors only later to bail out when it failed a fourth trial. He is no where near qualified to lead a country. He talks a good game, he smiles a good game but he is not what you think he is.

gcor
Reply to  John Oliver
August 27, 2023 10:51 am

Vivek is a fraud.

karlomonte
Reply to  gcor
August 27, 2023 4:14 pm

Translation: “Notice me! PLEASE!”

Stuart Baeriswyl
August 26, 2023 9:05 pm

Candidates running for government office need to bone up on digestible pertinent facts and then be able to articulate the truth to their constituents. Vivek is the only national figure that I am aware of who comes close to doing that. The mainline corporate media (a communication arm of the U.S. Democratic Party) must be called out specifically by these candidates seeking office. This website and the CO2 Coalition would be good sources for them.

Yesterday while driving to meet friends I flipped on KCBS radio (something I rarely do these days) and over the course of just 25 minutes I was treated to three (3) separate CAGW “new stories”; one about problems with Emperor penguins, another about “record breaking” local ocean temps, and one about thawing polar permafrost likely to release dangerous bacteria… all while driving to meet friends!

Janice Moore
August 26, 2023 9:38 pm

“Climate change is a hoax.”

Donald Trump

**************************
**************************

———TRUMP 2024——–

**************************
**************************

Janice Moore
Reply to  Janice Moore
August 26, 2023 9:45 pm

“Climate change” as used by the AGW thugs to mean, “meaningful shifts in the climate zones of the earth caused by human CO2 emissions”

Rich Davis
Reply to  Janice Moore
August 27, 2023 6:45 am

You’re technically correct Janice, but there are other definitions. I don’t go around saying we had a gay time at the party. You want to use language in a way that accurately conveys your meaning without inviting misinterpretation.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Rich Davis
August 27, 2023 3:39 pm

Mr. Davis. Not that I expect you to have done this, but, if you had read my comments over the past 10 years, you would realize that I am very well aware of that.

It will be good for others who are not aware to read what you wrote, though, so, it was worthwhile taking the time to explain something to me that I already know.

By the way, I was quoting President Trump. If I were his advisor, I would suggest some more precise language to use. As it is, I think what he meant was clear to the majority of people (even those who will intentionally twist his words to lie about him: “He doesn’t even believe that climate changes — how stupid.”)

goracle
Reply to  Janice Moore
August 27, 2023 6:21 am

Janice, what’s his agenda for 2024? Please send link to his re-election website so we can see it in blabk and white. All i see is “send me cash” links. Once again, lots of show and very little substance. The show can be good and he actually did a bunch of great things fron jan 2017 to jan 2020… but it fell apart quickly after that and he has no one to blame but himself.

Janice Moore
Reply to  goracle
August 27, 2023 3:45 pm

Lots of youtube videos of his speeches with the content you are seeking. Essentially: SAME AS BEFORE AND EVEN BETTER (secure borders — veteran’s medical improved — economy-boosting energy policy — data-driven environmental and economic policies, etc., etc.).

If you use a search engine, you will discover that the reason so much of what Trump accomplished in his first term (yes, there WILL be a second 😀) “fell apart quickly” was because of a U.S. economy-wrecking event that happened in 2020:

the Democrats captured the White House.

goracle
Reply to  Janice Moore
August 28, 2023 8:28 pm

Sure, he’s great at speeches… i completely agree on that, especially when not reading a teleprompter. Obama was a great orator as well. Did mexico pay for wall? Sis he build that beautiful wall? Did he “lock her up”? The list is pretty long. The point is not speech is not a plan. You fail to send me any link to his platform/agena/detailed plans if he becomes president. You, like many of my personal trumpite friends, want a show, not substance. The conservative movement is lost, just like the majority of christians (regarless of sect).

rah
Reply to  Janice Moore
August 27, 2023 10:26 am

I’m with you Janice. Trump did not get where he was by not being smart and adaptable. He has learned what he is up against and who not to trust. My biggest concern about him is his age an assination. But based on what is available out there and what the consequences are if we have another 4 years of a Socialist Democrat puppet in the WH, I will go with Trump. Even if he is in jail by the time of the election.

But even if he gets in and they haven’t killed him yet, because I suspect that if all else fails that is what they are going to try to do, he has a very tough row to hoe.

Janice Moore
Reply to  rah
August 27, 2023 3:51 pm

Thanks for the back-up, rah 😀 Age is a unique characteristic of each person. Trump displays strong evidence of being well able to run the USA into his 80’s. I have MUCH anecdotal evidence of many intellectually sharp, physically fit, 80 and even 90-somethings.

He absolutely personifies: “When the going gets tough, the tough get going.”

And he is, I believe, not alone. Jesus is with him — every step of the way (no, I don’t think that means everything Trump does is what Jesus would say or do — just that Trump is not alone as he hoes that row).

Stay safe out there, rah. (still on my daily, drivers, prayer list 😊)

rah
Reply to  Janice Moore
August 27, 2023 6:57 pm

Don’t worry about me dear. I retired in May. No longer a professional road warrior.

I retired when I found out my daughter has an aggressive cancer. The battle is not going well. She’s down to 94 lb. So say a prayer for Nikki.

But now that I’m “retired” I’m still busy doing stuff I have been wanting to get done for years. Addition of a attached two car garage and a sun room for example. Not doing the work myself and have accepted the bid of a Contractor but at that stage where there are details to work out before they get started.

Helped my neighbor take down and cut up three trees the last couple weeks and split and laid in a bunch of wood for my fireplace insert. Got about two years worth of cured and two years worth of stuff from the trees that I split and stacked in the lean-too off the back of my old garage.

Lots of other projects. Always something.

Janice Moore
Reply to  rah
August 27, 2023 8:04 pm

Oh, rah 😢 I just prayed for your precious daughter. And I will continue to be praying for ALL of you.

Roughest patch of road you have ever been on, no doubt.

Glad you are getting so much accomplished. Heh. You are not doing the construction…… but, if he is typical, you will have a full-time job supervising him to be sure the work is done right, done before winter….. done at all….

Take care.

“‘….underneath are the everlasting arms.'”

Janice

John Hultquist
August 26, 2023 9:49 pm

Nikki Haley believes CO2 is bad and promotes carbon capture and storage.
Other than that . . .

Izaak Walton
August 26, 2023 10:10 pm

I would have hoped that somebody with over 50 years of experience as a “scientist at the US Naval Laboratory” would know the difference between power (measured in kW) and energy measured in Joules or kWhrs. And if the author can’t even distinguish between the two which is fairly fundamental why would I believe anything else he says.

And if you want to say that it is a matter of editting then again if he can’t proof read his own article and correct the obvious mistakes why would I not think that that there are a lot of other errors in it.

Sunsettommy
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 26, 2023 10:33 pm

Where is the quote?

Izaak Walton
Reply to  Sunsettommy
August 26, 2023 10:58 pm

 “It showed that in the more developed world, the so-called OECD countries of 1.2 billion people, the per capita use of energy use is about 5 kW per capita, or 6 terawatts (trillion Watts) total”

Energy use is measured in Joules not kW. Anyone with more than 50 years of experience as a scientist should know that.

doonman
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 26, 2023 11:27 pm

Indeed. That’s why Biden should rename the Department of Energy to the Department of Power or stop having them regulate electrical power generation. Anyone with more than 50 years of experience as a government employee should know that. And if the President can’t even distinguish between the two which is fairly fundamental why would I believe anything else he says.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  doonman
August 27, 2023 5:03 am

Our current President can’t distinguish between 2023 and 2030.

starzmom
Reply to  Tom in Florida
August 27, 2023 6:43 am

He also can’t find his way off a stage without holding his wife’s hand. I am worried about him, and not in a good way.

Rich Davis
Reply to  starzmom
August 27, 2023 9:22 am

But he likes that nice lady who helps him find his way.

Now who is she again? Oh yeah must be my sister. Wife? No! My wife died, killed by a drunk driver in Afghanistan along with our boy Beau. He had oil cancer you know.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Rich Davis
August 27, 2023 4:02 pm

😄

bnice2000
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 27, 2023 12:14 pm

The problem here is Izzy’s lack of comprehension…

… the 5kW is the ongoing total energy consumption per capita.

(see eg for NSW below)

The author is using the correct units.

Izzy is just confused…. as always.

juanslayton
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 26, 2023 11:09 pm

Yeah, I was scratching my head about that also. Still, it seems to be a law of nature that critics of other writers’ work are liable to make mistakes of their own. (Did you proof your comment? A would-be editor ought to know how to spell “editing“.)

Duker
Reply to  juanslayton
August 26, 2023 11:22 pm

Good catch. No proof reading is foolproof especially when it’s written yourself

bnice2000
Reply to  juanslayton
August 27, 2023 12:16 pm

Except the units used by the author are correct…

.. the problem is that Izzy doesn’t comprehend what is being calculated.

bnice2000
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 27, 2023 5:10 am

If you read it carefully, you will see he is breaking it down to an equivalent RATE of energy use.

He should certainly have been more careful stating that.

He was just thinking at a different level than you are capable of, is all, Izzy !

bnice2000
Reply to  bnice2000
August 27, 2023 5:32 am

eg, Population NSW is about 8 million

Electricity demand is usually around 8GW

So each person is, on average, using 1kW of electricity… continuously.

He then does similar calculations to get other energy uses.

bnice2000
Reply to  bnice2000
August 27, 2023 12:11 pm

If you take the % electricity of total energy consumption as being around 20%. you end up with an ongoing energy consumption per capita of around 5kW, as stated by the author.

Seems the problem is not the author, but Izzy’s lack of comprehension.

Rich Davis
Reply to  bnice2000
August 27, 2023 6:52 am

Oh you mean IQ above room temperature I presume.

Jim Masterson
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 27, 2023 8:58 pm

Usually, in the US, power companies use kilowatt-hour to charge their customers. There’s one quote in the article: “A gallon of gas (or heating oil) has the energy equivalent of about 40 kW hours . . . .” Obviously the author knows the difference between power and energy. The author was obviously stating rate-of-energy use and not total energy use. As watts are joules per second, that would be the correct unit. It’s true that the author should have made his position more clear, but not everyone can be as confused as you apparently are. As for mistakes, I listened to an MIT thermodynamics prof compare temeprature to energy–one would think such a person would know better.

bnice2000
Reply to  Jim Masterson
August 27, 2023 10:02 pm

Yep Jim, See my post and example just a couple up.

The author is using the correct units for what he is calculating.

Probably didn’t state it too well, though.

Jim Masterson
Reply to  bnice2000
August 28, 2023 9:23 pm

Sorry. I should have acknowledged you and others for stating essentially the same thing I did. Also, I tried to correct a spelling error and replace “compare” with “equate,” but I was told I was editing too fast and wasn’t allowed.

cilo
August 26, 2023 11:15 pm

! don’t usually do this (usually) but seeing as we broached the subject of miz Haley:
https://www.greenpets.co.za/index.php/en/bantu-education/210-satanic-priest
Yes, it’s somewhat frivolous, but one tries to be somewhat entertaining, ya?

Rich Davis
Reply to  cilo
August 27, 2023 7:02 am

Ravings of a schizophrenic meth addict?

John DeFayette
August 26, 2023 11:40 pm

Thank goodness we have President Ramaswamy to pardon Trump and the J6 political prisoners on January 20, 2025. That same day he will begin erasing the climate change idiocy from the federal government, returning the US to the energy dominance achieved previously under Trump. He should be smart enough to recognize the federal roadblocks to nuclear fission commercialization that need to be demolished as well, and maybe he’ll even be able to get Congress to move its butt.

Walter R. Hogle
Reply to  John DeFayette
August 26, 2023 11:55 pm

The J6 political prisoners? I’m speechless. The stuff that’s said on this website sometimes is just mind blowing.

karlomonte
Reply to  Walter R. Hogle
August 27, 2023 8:30 am

You mean like this?

“A NATIONAL DISGRACE: Photos Leaked of Horrific January 6 Prisoner Abuse – Tortured 5 Months in Isolation in a Closet Room with Light on and a Bucket for a Toilet — Where are the ACLU, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch?”

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2023/08/national-disgrace-photos-leaked-horrific-january-6-prisoner/

karlomonte
Reply to  Walter R. Hogle
August 27, 2023 8:36 am

Or this:

“Father of Five, J6 Political Prisoner James Brett Awaits Trail-FBI Raided His Home at Gunpoint With Infant Daughter Inside”

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2023/08/father-five-j6-political-prisoner-james-brett-awaits/

(NB ‘Trail’ shouid be ‘Trial’)

Simon
Reply to  karlomonte
August 28, 2023 4:15 pm

Let me guess (and I did without looking) the Gateway Pundit right? Do you ever read news with any truth?

Simon
Reply to  karlomonte
August 28, 2023 4:23 pm

The opening line in Wiki’s description of the Gateway Pundit
The Gateway Pundit (TGP) is an American far-right[2] fake news website.[1] The website is known for publishing falsehoods, hoaxes, and conspiracy theories.[34]

Do not waste your time ever posting a response to me from a website that quotes one of the Proud Boys as a fountain of truth. I wont ever respond to a white supremacist website fact. No wonder you have such weird theories around Jan 6 and so much hate in what you write.

bnice2000
Reply to  Simon
August 28, 2023 10:29 pm

You never respond to any facts.. no matter where they are from.

And Wiki.. is run by the far-left on many topics, particularly politics and its related climate farce.

Wiki in those cases is a FAR-LEFT, FAKE, ANTI-TRUTH, SEWER….

… which is known for publishing deliberate falsehoods, hoaxes, scams and anti-science garbage.

karlomonte
Reply to  Simon
August 28, 2023 11:38 pm

Bite me, MaoBoi.

gcor
Reply to  John DeFayette
August 27, 2023 11:10 am

Haha. How delusional are you?

karlomonte
Reply to  gcor
August 27, 2023 4:16 pm

Is this all there is to your kook-dance? Calling people “delusional”?

Boring.

bnice2000
Reply to  gcor
August 27, 2023 8:01 pm

Nowhere near as delusional as you are !

You seem to have some deep-seated DERANGEMENT Syndrome.

Coeur de Lion
August 27, 2023 12:19 am

I have just been reading a policy document from the UK Ministry of Defrnce on how it intends to decarbonise itself. Extraordinarily ignorant. Terribly damaging. Talks about our ‘leadership’. I despair.

Hysteria
August 27, 2023 12:19 am

. A gallon of gas (or heating oil) has the energy equivalent of about 40 kW hours, and there are about 30 million seconds in a year, so the family’s cars use about 5 kW

This and the next paragraph are just nonsense…..

Janice Moore
Reply to  Hysteria
August 27, 2023 4:07 pm

To understand, see bnice2000’s comments explaining that above.

chrisseekgold
August 27, 2023 1:36 am

The alarmist science blaming fossil fuel burning for causing a climate crisis requires a big increase in global temperatures to occur. This hasn’t happened at least since 2000. So how can manmade actions have caused their putative crisis?

Janice Moore
Reply to  chrisseekgold
August 27, 2023 4:10 pm

Moreover, fossil fuel burning by China and India has risen GREATLY during that time period. And still, no mid-level troposphere “hot spot.” OR “climate change” or increase in catastrophic weather events.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Janice Moore
August 27, 2023 4:16 pm

(Note: the Edit function is broken — “You’re posting too quickly” comes up every time — no matter how long one waits…)

Moreover, CO2 emissions, mainly due to fossil fuel burning by China and India, have risen GREATLY. Surface temperature rise is essentially FLAT.

comment image

bnice2000
Reply to  Janice Moore
August 27, 2023 8:06 pm

Janice, where is that image from, please.

I typed the youtube link in, but it says its private.

Janice Moore
Reply to  bnice2000
August 27, 2023 10:12 pm

I am now on a different device, so, my search history isn’t accessible. I can’t remember where it came from.

But, I found it at another location, just now, hockeyshtick.blogspot.com.

I did a duckduckgo.com search using: “hockeyshtick, CO2 emissions plotted with surface temperature graph.”

And. ….. RATS! Just tried to copy/paste the image and my “smart” phone won’t do it. I was using my laptop to post the image, earlier today.

I won’t have wi-fi/laptop internet until I return to work on Wednesday. I will check into it, then.

Best wishes in the meantime….

Janice Moore
Reply to  Janice Moore
August 30, 2023 10:39 am
bnice2000
Reply to  chrisseekgold
August 27, 2023 8:04 pm

The only slight increases have come at El Ninos events.

Absolutely NOTHING to do with increased in the gas of life… ie CO2.

Simon
Reply to  bnice2000
August 28, 2023 4:25 pm

Oh boy he’s back on the El Nino did it rant…..

bnice2000
Reply to  Simon
August 28, 2023 10:36 pm

You admitted only the other day that El Ninos cause warming.

Your mind is more empty than a goldfish’s. !

karlomonte
Reply to  bnice2000
August 28, 2023 11:40 pm

He still thinks Trump told people to drink bleach.

How dumb is this?

HotScot
August 27, 2023 2:25 am

What historians will definitely wonder about in future centuries is how deeply flawed logic, obscured by shrewd and unrelenting propaganda, actually enabled a coalition of powerful special interests to convince nearly everyone in the world that CO2 from human industry was a dangerous, planet-destroying toxin.

The operative word here being “propaganda”.

Less than 10% of the world has a higher educational qualification, even fewer have a higher science qualification.

The left realised that very early on and adopted propaganda to spread their climate message.

Sceptics adopted science to counter the propaganda and 90% of the world hand’t a clue what they were talking about.

Science is hard.

Everyone understands propaganda. Even if they hadn’t fiddled the figures, there are plenty of scientist’s around to feather their own nest and lie to the public.

Tom in Florida
August 27, 2023 4:43 am

“He said: “The climate crisis is a hoax”, but was immediately shouted down, and this was by a group of conservative Republicans. ”

He was shouted down for saying he was the only one not bought and paid for, not about his climate change comment.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Tom in Florida
August 27, 2023 9:36 am

That’s an important point Tom. “Bought and paid for” is just inflammatory demagoguery. Hate to be anywhere near agreeing with Christie Kreme but on that he’s right.

rah
August 27, 2023 5:23 am

One can always tell who the GOP establishment uniparty fears. I watched. There was nothing “robotic” about Vivek’s presentations or arguments. He was as passionate as any of them and more passionate than most.

Karl Rove hits Ramaswamy for ‘over-the-top’ debate performance that was ‘robotic’ (msn.com)

As for Chris Chirsty. He is the biggest fattest ankle biter I have ever seen. His sole function from the beginning has been get Trump. I don’t want that person anywhere near any office in government. Isn’t it amazing that a guy that was polling at less than 10% approval when he left the Governor’s office in NJ thinks that he has a shot at being POTUS?

IMO the only two on that stage that are actually in the race are DeSantis and Ramaswamy. All the others are also ran fodder. Niki Haley is totally GOP establishment. This Hoosier knows that Pence couldn’t be elected dog catcher in this state now. The others don’t matter. They’re going nowhere in this race.
DeSantis is the preferred establishment candidate and has the backing of the Big GOP megadonors and is quite obviously the preferred candidate of Murdoch and thus FNN. Just watch Cavuto or Baier, they always faithfully toe the Murdoch line.

DeSantis has proven the success that other GOP candidates are ‘promising’: Hal Lambert | Watch (msn.com)

BTW as of yesterday Trump’s mugshot had garnered him $7.1 million. Last I saw he is polling at between 52 to 61% approval among Republican voters depending on which major pole one wants to believe. According to the RCP poll averages only Trump and Ramaswamy have rising poll numbers. DeSantis has clearly been losing ground and all the others are just noise.

RealClearPolitics – Election 2024 – 2024 Republican Presidential Nomination

Rich Davis
Reply to  rah
August 27, 2023 10:03 am

The donor class might prefer Desantis over Trump or Ramaswamy, but Desantis is no RINO. The idea that donors are profiting from the Ukraine carnage doesn’t seem very credible to me. Can’t we have a difference of opinion about what constitutes prudent foreign policy without baseless accusations about conflicts of interest? Especially when the other side clearly DOES have a massive conflict of interest?

I don’t know what Ron thinks he’s doing leaning so hard into the culture war issues with Disney. Not that I object in the least, but it probably doesn’t help with the soccer moms. Sending migrants to Martha’s Vineyard is no RINO stunt, either.

I would be happy to vote for Ron Desantis.

rah
Reply to  Rich Davis
August 27, 2023 11:46 am

The difference in the proportion of small doners to large doners shows that Trump is more popular the electorate than DeSantis and that there is some validity to the polls.

I totally understand DeSantis going after Disney. Three years ago we went with my 6 y/o Granddaughter to Disneyworld. One place we took her was the Princess makeover boutique where the kid picks the Disney princess they want to be and are dressed up and made up to look as much like them as possible. The greeters at that attraction now at both Disneyworld and Disneyland are grown men in drag with facial hair!

Disney has been destroying everything they touch now days from the wholesome environment family oriented and activities to their movie characters with over the top wokeness. They’ve ruined every character from Buzz Lightyear to the Little Mermaid. They have been destroying the Marvel Heros and even Star Wars. Their bottom line is showing it.

Abigail Disney says her great uncle Walt was a fascist and it is like she is trying to destroy what he and her great grandfather built.

gcor
Reply to  rah
August 27, 2023 10:46 am

Vivek is a fraud. No accomplishments beyond being good at being the most insufferable person in the room. His ignorance is astounding.

rah
Reply to  gcor
August 27, 2023 2:46 pm

Broken record. You’ve already said that multiple times on this board. And your opinion has no effect on what the polls are showing. I would say that Vivek did good just by watching the leftist press go after him on todays shows.

gcor
Reply to  rah
August 27, 2023 3:03 pm

I’ll keep saying it because it’s TRUE. He’s a fraud with no morals who lies about what he’s said in interviews, hires people to scrub his Wikipedia page of ties to George Soros, has no grasp on foreign policy, etc. Polls? You realize how meaningless those are? Y’all never learn… He’s a delusional joke.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  rah
August 27, 2023 12:56 pm

I bet a lot of Christie’s donations came from Democrats. I wouldn’t be surprsed if there were a concerted effort on the part of the Democrats to get Christie on the debate stage so he could trash Trump.

nyeevknoit
August 27, 2023 5:23 am

“He said: “The climate crisis is a hoax”, but was immediately shouted down, and this was by a group of conservative Republicans. Probably more readers of wattsupwiththat would use the word false, rather than hoax. Nobody thinks this is a big joke. 

WOW. I thought the Republicans were in agreement that the science for a “climate crisis” is false
( albeit with a lot of self-interest, fraud, exaggeration, omissions, hype, cancelling, massive misallocation of taxpayer dollars,.etc).

Looked at the last Republican Platform….2016!
Page 17-22 are “America’s Natural Resources: Agriculture, Energy and the Environment” includes a few paragraphs at the end about using “hard data” and the IPCC.
The section is not designed for capturing headlines or factual statements.

Does the Republican Party have a more direct and useful statement on climate, science?
..with a demand for economic stability and growth that requires absolute energy availability and reliability?
One would think that a few 1000’s of $Billions of wasted taxpayer funds and commensurate lost real productive economic growth would be a priority.

Who communicates the evidence from this site with Republicans? to Representatives?

Our entire economy…and security…depend a firm statement!

Tom Abbott
Reply to  nyeevknoit
August 27, 2023 12:59 pm

“Does the Republican Party have a more direct and useful statement on climate, science?”

No, most Repubican politicians are afraid to take a position for fear of criticism from the Leftwing Media. They worry more about the opinion of the leftwing than they do about the truth.

Tom.1
August 27, 2023 5:45 am

One cannot simply dismiss climate change as a hoax. It is too deeply embedded in the minds of too many people. It is going to take a generation, perhaps more, before people will be able to accept that climate doom is not upon us. For the true believers, this idea will never go away, but it can be sufficiently tamped down by reality that more rational policy choices will be considered. There is really nothing to do but wait for the climate doom movement to exhaust itself.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Tom.1
August 27, 2023 1:00 pm

Yes, we need about a decade of obvious cooling to change the narrative.

Duane
August 27, 2023 6:28 am

It is not a winning argument to simply declare that the climate crisis is a hoax. Trump didn’t succeed with that argument, and neither will Ramaswamy or any other Republican. The best policy prescription by candidates for office (Congress as well as the Presidency) is to state the following:

1) The science is not actually settled, and there is always more to learn about how climate responds to inputs. It is not “science denial” to want to better understand our environment before taking drastic harmful actions.

2) The climate has always changed, but slowly, and it always will. We all – humans, plants and animals – have always adapted to those changes. That’s why we’re still here and, by the way, thriving.

3) In the meantime, making affordable energy available to all is the only way to provide an acceptable standard of living and to provide security to all; it is foolish to clamp down on energy availability at a time when we really don’t understand climate process very well.

4) It is inevitable that fossil fuel use will eventually be limited by supply, but in the meantime other sources of energy will continue to be developed. There is no cause to disrupt civilization in the name of an ill defined threat.

I suppose this summary is a bit wordy and perhaps could be boiled down for political sound bites, but politicizing climate is what is wrong already. It is a technical matter that humans will resolve, not a call to arms.

But by stating the above principles, Republicans will not appear to be just demogoging the issue, as Ramaswamy and Trump did, but will be seen as responding responsibly and intelligently and not simply slinging mud.

If only!

Duane
Reply to  Duane
August 27, 2023 6:31 am

A couple of the candidates at the debate, including Ron DeSantis, whom according to Fox News Channel’s poll of Republicans was the “winner” of the debate, didn’t go into the detail I describe above, but they DID point out that taking drastic actions to curtail US energy production is only helping China, who more than make up for whatever cuts in emissions we produce. And that China is our biggest geopolitical threat.

Don’t be stupid, in other words.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Duane
August 27, 2023 9:25 am

It was only the first debate, and a very crowded one at that. No one had enough time to adequately address their full positions so it was more a “most important sound bite” type of presentation. As the pretenders go away and we get down to the final 2, that is when the details will be revealed and judgement can be made.

Ian_e
August 27, 2023 7:16 am

Yep: Nikki Haley eh? I see the Democrats are now saying that she is the candidate they most fear – or, in plain English, she is the most useless and least likely to beat even (and that is saying a lot!) Biden.

rah
Reply to  Ian_e
August 27, 2023 8:25 am

I’m becoming ever more doubtful that Biden is even going to make it to the 2024 election. His condition is becoming so bad that even the corporate press is having a hard time covering for him.

starzmom
Reply to  rah
August 27, 2023 12:04 pm

Sadly, as long as he has a pulse, and will follow his wife (that nice lady who holds his hand) around, he is going to be the nominee, and maybe get elected. We should hope that they do better on a running mate, since that person may be the president.

karlomonte
August 27, 2023 8:49 am

All of these pretenders need to drop out now, they are only serving the interests of the marxo-democrats.

Janice Moore
Reply to  karlomonte
August 27, 2023 4:22 pm

I agree. I don’t think they are all pretending, but, for the good of the U.S., and to stand against the election interference and downright thuggery of the Democrats, it’s time to back Trump.

karlomonte
Reply to  Janice Moore
August 28, 2023 11:43 pm

Amen. They are pretenders in the sense that they have no real shot against DJT nor the marxo-democrat Fascists.

Janice Moore
Reply to  karlomonte
August 30, 2023 10:34 am

True.

Beta Blocker
August 27, 2023 10:43 am

Climate activists inside the Biden adminstration haven’t gone nearly as far as current law would allow them to go in quickly suppressing America’s carbon emissions. That they haven’t yet done so raises this question:

Just how far could Joe Biden and the Biden administration go in quickly reducing America’s consumption of fossil fuels using authorities already granted to the Exectutive Branch under current law?

My essay posted on the WUWT Open Thread article from August 27th, 2023, covers this topic in considerable depth: 

The Supply Side Carbon Emission Control Plan (SSCECP): a fast track approach for eliminating fossil fuels from America’s economy

Joe Biden himself doesn’t call the shots in his administration. That said, all of Biden’s cabinet members, senior advisors, and agency heads have bought into the ‘climate change as existential threat’ narrative. However, these people haven’t gone nearly as far as they legally could go in suppressing America’s carbon emissions. Not by a long shot.

But the temptation to push the legal envelope to its absolute limits has to be there. These people are who they are, and their long-term vision for America is that it become a fully socialized command economy.

The SSCECP would give the people who call the shots in the Biden administration direct control over the lifeblood of the American economy, energy in all of its various forms. A plan as bold and aggressive as the conceptual SSCECP would be the perfect means to do deliver their vision for America.

karlomonte
Reply to  Beta Blocker
August 27, 2023 4:19 pm

They are already charging lawyers with felonies for appearing in court and writing legal briefs, as well as gutting legal privileges.

Tony_G
Reply to  karlomonte
August 28, 2023 7:40 am

There is an organization that goes after any lawyer who defends Trump to get them disbarred. This is a sick attack on our legal system where ALL defendants, no matter how repugnant, are entitled to a defense.

If it succeeds, justice will no longer exist in the US.

karlomonte
Reply to  Tony_G
August 28, 2023 11:44 pm

Indeed, it is quite close to being already gone.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  karlomonte
August 29, 2023 5:35 am

Yes, our legal system is under attack from within.

Brian.
August 27, 2023 8:37 pm

Yes, that’s the thing that I found most disheartening about the Republic debate – the loud boo from the audience when Vivey rightly denounced the #ClimateScam
I was shocked, quite frankly.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Brian.
August 29, 2023 5:39 am

I listened to this part of the debate again, and one could make a case that the booing was for Vivek calling everyone on stage but himself as being “bought and paid for”, and you could make a case for the booing being made because of the climate change quote. It could have been for either reason, or maybe even both, but I think it started because of the “bought and paid for” comment. I don’t think the Repubican audience was that upset with calling climate change a hoax. They didn’t boo Trump when he said the same thing.

Bill Parsons
Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 29, 2023 12:02 pm

I I had seen parts of it Trump’s protest speech as it was happening and considered it sour grapes. Among other things I did not like him pressuring Pence. In any case I read parts of the transcript to find his instructions to the crowd which he said he assumed would be walking up the hill to the capital. He used the word “peaceful” but he also enjoined the crowd to “fight”. I agreed with his call for voter rule fixes which he cites near the end. I’ve always thought a photo id and citizenship were a low bar for voting and should be required. Walk-in voters should be in line before 7 pm local time election night. All mail-in ballots should be postmarked a week before election night. Absentee ballots should be in the day before the election. Unsigned or unverifiable ballots should not be counted. Ballot drop boxes seem to be a major source of the problem. Probably should be eliminated.

Creating federal voter legislation that would supersede States’ rights would elicit huge cries of unfairness – and only a Republican president with the support of both houses of Congress could do it.

Violating these laws would be prosecuted as federal crimes. People who have committed these crimes already should be prosecuted and trials made public.

Trump is inclined to hyperbole, so I did not believe his condemnation of mail-in and absentee ballots which we have used in my state for many years. I was aware of “shenanigans”, but no clear evidence that fraud was widespread.

Last night I streamed a free version of Dinesh D’Souza “2000 Mules” which makes a strong case against the Democrats for organized fraud through ballot harvesting. If its charges are valid they constitute massive election interference and Trump’s lawyers should certainly raise them in every one of his hearings. In that sense, if the D’Souza thesis and his interviews are made public, maybe the indictments against Trump are a good thing for election transparency. I assume you’ve seen the video.

What is the best single support of the D’Souza thesis that you’ve seen? What is the best single refutation of his argument?

By “best” I mean the clearest and most unbiased report with documented and supporting evidence. You’re very opinionated on this topic. Personally I think strong claims need equally strong support.

michel
August 28, 2023 12:32 am

“What historians will definitely wonder about in future centuries is how deeply flawed logic, obscured by shrewd and unrelenting propaganda, actually enabled a coalition of powerful special interests to convince nearly everyone in the world that CO2 from human industry was a dangerous, planet-destroying toxin.”

Except this is not what happened. What happened was that a small minority of activists managed to persuade the political and media class in the English speaking countries that they had to reduce emissions.

The rest of the world drifted along making pious noises in public, but taking absolutely no action, and in private shaking their heads over the madness that appeared to be overtaking America, Canada, England, Australia and New Zealand.

It has made some headway in Brussels and Germany also, though not as much. But in both Germany and Holland we are seeing now the first signs of popular revolt.

No-one outside the English speaking countries really believes it. That’s a very important fact about the mania. These manias have occurred before and will again, and they are always confined to a particular group or culture.

As a comparison, look at the other two great madnesses of our time, those on gender and race. Same mechanism.

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