Comments on: Scottish battery factory goes bust in fresh blow to UKโ€™s net zeroย industry https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/12/21/scottish-battery-factory-goes-bust-in-fresh-blow-to-uks-net-zero-industry/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=scottish-battery-factory-goes-bust-in-fresh-blow-to-uks-net-zero-industry The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change Sat, 23 Dec 2023 11:29:17 +0000 hourly 1 By: Tom Abbott https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/12/21/scottish-battery-factory-goes-bust-in-fresh-blow-to-uks-net-zero-industry/#comment-3835458 Sat, 23 Dec 2023 11:29:17 +0000 https://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10272947#comment-3835458 In reply to MarkH.

There you go, getting technical. Don’t you know you are bursting climate alarmists bubbles with this statement? Keep up the good work! ๐Ÿ™‚

]]>
By: Tom Abbott https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/12/21/scottish-battery-factory-goes-bust-in-fresh-blow-to-uks-net-zero-industry/#comment-3835457 Sat, 23 Dec 2023 11:27:22 +0000 https://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10272947#comment-3835457 In reply to sturmudgeon.

And the taxpayers will be holding the bag.

]]>
By: Tom Abbott https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/12/21/scottish-battery-factory-goes-bust-in-fresh-blow-to-uks-net-zero-industry/#comment-3835455 Sat, 23 Dec 2023 11:24:19 +0000 https://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10272947#comment-3835455 In reply to Graemethecat.

Yes, every time we turn around there is another lithium battery fire.

One of Ford’s production lines was shut down over the last couple of days because of a battery fire starting on the line. One fireman said it looked like batteries had caught on fire although he couldn’t say if the batteries were in a vehicle at the time.

]]>
By: Tom Abbott https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/12/21/scottish-battery-factory-goes-bust-in-fresh-blow-to-uks-net-zero-industry/#comment-3835453 Sat, 23 Dec 2023 11:20:57 +0000 https://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10272947#comment-3835453 In reply to sturmudgeon.

I wouldn’t doubt it. ๐Ÿ™‚

]]>
By: sturmudgeon https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/12/21/scottish-battery-factory-goes-bust-in-fresh-blow-to-uks-net-zero-industry/#comment-3835252 Fri, 22 Dec 2023 21:35:59 +0000 https://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10272947#comment-3835252 In reply to Edward Katz.

No, the governments will be blameless.

]]>
By: sturmudgeon https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/12/21/scottish-battery-factory-goes-bust-in-fresh-blow-to-uks-net-zero-industry/#comment-3835250 Fri, 22 Dec 2023 21:34:55 +0000 https://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10272947#comment-3835250 In reply to Richard Page.

Not only ‘women’.

]]>
By: sturmudgeon https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/12/21/scottish-battery-factory-goes-bust-in-fresh-blow-to-uks-net-zero-industry/#comment-3835247 Fri, 22 Dec 2023 21:25:31 +0000 https://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10272947#comment-3835247 In reply to Tom Abbott.

The Air Bags in his vehicle(s) are actually filled with “documents”.

]]>
By: wilpost https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/12/21/scottish-battery-factory-goes-bust-in-fresh-blow-to-uks-net-zero-industry/#comment-3835245 Fri, 22 Dec 2023 21:23:59 +0000 https://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10272947#comment-3835245 In reply to cartoss.

No wonder!
People are finally catching on to the tremendous capital and operating cost of battery systems.
Go to the Tesla Megapack website which gives prices/kWh delivered as AC. All those prices are over $450/kWh, add to that the other costs for a complete turnkey system, and you are at $575/kWh.

Bloomberg, Lazard, etc., still use these rediculous numbers of $100/kWh.
Where in hell do they get those numbers?

This articles explains all in detail

BATTERY SYSTEM CAPITAL COSTS, OPERATING COSTS, ENERGY LOSSES, AND AGING
https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/battery-system-capital-costs-losses-and-aging

EXCERPT

Example of Turnkey Cost of Large-Scale, Megapack Battery System, 2023 pricing
 
The system consists of 50 Megapack 2, rated 45.3 MW/181.9 MWh, 4-h energy delivery
Power = 50 Megapacks x 0.979 MW x 0.926, Tesla design factor = 45.3 MW
Energy = 50 Megapacks x 3.916 MWh x 0.929, Tesla design factor = 181.9 MWh
 
Estimate of supply by Tesla, $90 million, or $495/kWh. See URL
Estimate of supply by Others, $14.5 million, or $80/kWh
All-in, turnkey cost about $575/kWh; 2023 pricing
 
https://www.tesla.com/megapack/design
https://cms.zerohedge.com/s3/files/inline-images/2022-03-21_15-28-46.png?itok=lxTa2SlF
https://www.zerohedge.com/commodities/tesla-hikes-megapack-prices-commodity-inflation-soars
 
Annual Cost of Megapack Battery Systems; 2023 pricing
 
Assume a system rated 45.3 MW/181.9 MWh, and an all-in turnkey cost of $104.5 million, per Example 2
Amortize bank loan for 50% of $104.5 million at 6.5%/y for 15 years, $5.462 million/y
Pay Owner return of 50% of $104.5 million at 10%/y for 15 years, $6.738 million/y (10% due to high inflation)
Lifetime (Bank + Owner) payments 15 x (5.462 + 6.738) = $183 million
 
Assume battery daily usage for 15 years at 10%, and losses at 19%
Battery output = 15 y x 365 d/y x 181.9 MWh x 0.1, usage x 1000 kWh/MWh = 99,590,250 kWh delivered to HV grid
 
(Bank + Owner) payments, $183 million / 99,590,250 kWh = 183.8 c/kWh
Less 50% subsidies (ITC, depreciation in 5 years, deduction of interest on borrowed funds) is 91.9c/kWh
At 10% usage, publicized cost, 91.9 c/kWh
At 40% usage, publicized cost, 23.0 c/kWh
 
Excluded costs/kWh: 1) O&M; 2) system aging, 3) system losses from HV grid to HV grid, 3) grid extension/reinforcement to connect the battery systems, 5) downtime of parts of the system, 6) decommissioning in year 15, i.e., disassembly, reprocessing and storing at hazardous waste sites.
 
NOTE 1: The 40% usage is close to Teslaโ€™s recommendation of 60% usage, i.e., not charging above 80% and not discharging below 20%. Teslaโ€™s recommendation was not heeded be owners of the Hornsdale Power Reserve. They added Megapacks to offset rapid aging of the original system and added more Megapacks to increase the rating of the expanded system.
http://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/the-hornsdale-power-reserve-largest-battery-system-in-australia
 
NOTE 2: Aerial photos of large-scale battery systems with many Megapacks, show many items of equipment, other than the Tesla supply, such as step-down/step-up transformers, switchgear, connections to the grid, land, access roads, fencing, security, site lighting, i.e., the cost of the Tesla supply is only one part of the battery system cost at a site.
 
NOTE 3: Battery system turnkey capital costs and electricity storage costs likely will be much higher in 2023 and future years, than in 2021 and earlier years, due to: 1) increased inflation rates, 2) increased interest rates, 3) supply chain disruptions, which delay projects and increase costs, 4) increased energy prices, such as of oil, gas, coal, electricity, etc., 5) increased materials prices, such as of tungsten, cobalt, lithium, copper, manganese, etc., 6) increased labor rates.
  
NOTE 4: World cobalt production was 142,000 and 170,000 metric ton, in 2020 and 2021, respectively, of which the Democratic Republic of the Congo was 120,000 metric ton in 2021.

NOTE 5: If a 24-h system is desired, each parallel train would have  10 units x 4 h/unit x 0.6, Tesla limit = 24 hours
Ten, 4-h Megapacks, in series, would be required

Above Example 2 would have 50 x 6 = 300 Megapacks. The Tesla design factors would be different
 
https://www.kitco.com/news/2022-02-02/Global-cobalt-production-hits-record-in-2021-as-mined-cobalt-output-in-DR-Congo-jumps-22-4.html

]]>
By: sturmudgeon https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/12/21/scottish-battery-factory-goes-bust-in-fresh-blow-to-uks-net-zero-industry/#comment-3835244 Fri, 22 Dec 2023 21:20:43 +0000 https://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10272947#comment-3835244 ๐Ÿ˜Ž ๐Ÿ˜Ž ๐Ÿ˜Ž ๐Ÿ˜Ž]]> In reply to AndyHce.

๐Ÿ˜Ž ๐Ÿ˜Ž ๐Ÿ˜Ž ๐Ÿ˜Ž ๐Ÿ˜Ž

]]>
By: sturmudgeon https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/12/21/scottish-battery-factory-goes-bust-in-fresh-blow-to-uks-net-zero-industry/#comment-3835243 Fri, 22 Dec 2023 21:19:08 +0000 https://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10272947#comment-3835243 In reply to MarkW.

And lousy vetting of Judges.

]]>
By: Graemethecat https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/12/21/scottish-battery-factory-goes-bust-in-fresh-blow-to-uks-net-zero-industry/#comment-3835224 Fri, 22 Dec 2023 20:39:52 +0000 https://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10272947#comment-3835224 In reply to Tom Abbott.

Don’t forget the battery fires (more like explosions), which are almost impossible to extinguish.

]]>
By: Graemethecat https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/12/21/scottish-battery-factory-goes-bust-in-fresh-blow-to-uks-net-zero-industry/#comment-3835223 Fri, 22 Dec 2023 20:36:02 +0000 https://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10272947#comment-3835223 In reply to Joseph Zorzin.

It also requires huge amounts of fossil fuel to mine the ore and make metallic lithium.

]]>
By: Graemethecat https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/12/21/scottish-battery-factory-goes-bust-in-fresh-blow-to-uks-net-zero-industry/#comment-3835220 Fri, 22 Dec 2023 20:33:32 +0000 https://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10272947#comment-3835220 In reply to scvblwxq.

CRONY capitalism doesn’t work well.

]]>
By: cagwsceptic https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/12/21/scottish-battery-factory-goes-bust-in-fresh-blow-to-uks-net-zero-industry/#comment-3835132 Fri, 22 Dec 2023 16:43:20 +0000 https://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10272947#comment-3835132 In reply to cartoss.

Perhaps they supplied the duff batteries for Oslo’s e buses.

]]>
By: Tony_G https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/12/21/scottish-battery-factory-goes-bust-in-fresh-blow-to-uks-net-zero-industry/#comment-3835096 Fri, 22 Dec 2023 15:58:08 +0000 https://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10272947#comment-3835096 In reply to Tom Abbott.

I’ve heard about that scene but haven’t seen it in the snippets I have seen. The one that really got me though is the scene where they guy is talking about his friends “evil cabal”. He actually uses the term “evil cabal”.

Although the scene with the guy saying he’s useless without his cell phone rang remarkably true.

]]>
By: Dave Andrews https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/12/21/scottish-battery-factory-goes-bust-in-fresh-blow-to-uks-net-zero-industry/#comment-3835050 Fri, 22 Dec 2023 14:41:11 +0000 https://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10272947#comment-3835050 In reply to sherro01.

Geoff, I agree with you. I was amazed when I found out about that timescale.

]]>
By: 0perator https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/12/21/scottish-battery-factory-goes-bust-in-fresh-blow-to-uks-net-zero-industry/#comment-3835031 Fri, 22 Dec 2023 14:29:06 +0000 https://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10272947#comment-3835031 Itโ€™s Solyndras all the way down.

]]>
By: observa https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/12/21/scottish-battery-factory-goes-bust-in-fresh-blow-to-uks-net-zero-industry/#comment-3835006 Fri, 22 Dec 2023 13:59:55 +0000 https://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10272947#comment-3835006 Another technical issue-
SunPower breaches credit agreement, warns business may go under โ€“ pv magazine International (pv-magazine.com)

]]>
By: Tom Abbott https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/12/21/scottish-battery-factory-goes-bust-in-fresh-blow-to-uks-net-zero-industry/#comment-3834933 Fri, 22 Dec 2023 10:42:07 +0000 https://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10272947#comment-3834933 In reply to Bryan A.

Good point! ๐Ÿ™‚

I’m hanging on to my 1992 Chevy Silverado with an iron grip! When this motor wears out (if it ever does) I’ll replace it with a 500hp LS engine.

I’m also hanging on to my 1989 GMC Cargo Van. I don’t think its V-6 engine will ever wear out. And a van comes in real handy sometimes.

I’m sticking with Internal Combustion Engines.

]]>
By: Tom Abbott https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/12/21/scottish-battery-factory-goes-bust-in-fresh-blow-to-uks-net-zero-industry/#comment-3834932 Fri, 22 Dec 2023 10:37:02 +0000 https://wattsupwiththat.com/?p=10272947#comment-3834932 In reply to Paul Hurley.

Not just high prices. Range anxiety and the charging hassles are probably bigger factors. They are for me.

]]>